My Experience at the "Bose Factory Store"

[Analogeezer]

Last weekend I was out with the wife/kid and my mom...shopping for
back to school clothes. This was out of town for me (down in NC).

We're at one of these large outdoor shoparama things, and towards the
end of the day, my wife and mom want to go into some purse store or
something, which just happens to be next door to the "BOSE Factory
Outlet Store" or something like that.

I'm hot and bored so I figure "I'll check this place out and see what
it's like".

So me and the boy go in there......JEEZZZZZ I've been less assaulted
by creepy sales droids in a car dealer than this place, talk about
high pressure!!

I get five steps into the place and a "sales counselor" walks up and
starts hitting on me.

I explain I'm just hanging out there while the fems shop next
door....but he's not taking no for an answer.

He asks me if I'm familiar with Bose and I say something to the effect
of "well actually I'm more into Pro Audio, and the name Bose in Pro
Audio is pretty much persona non-grata...we generally think that Bose
Pro Audio products suck"

So the guy keeps up the sales pap, to which I reply "well if I was
gonna drop some serious cash on a home stereo I figure I'd be looking
at Bryston and B&W or something like that".

Meanwhile I'm noticing they have these "mini stereo" things that are
like $2,000....I'm thinking "sheessshhhhh, who buys this crap!"

The guy offered to take me in the back as they were starting a demo
soon, and I finally said "well I'm sure it sounds nice but the way you
have this store setup in no way resembles anybody's actual living room
so I don't know how your demo would translate to an actual space where
this stuff would get used".

He finally backs off and shortly after that my wife and mom show up to
rescue me.

Anyway, the whole experience left me really turned off, it reminded me
a whole lot of car dealers....salespeople that know virtually nothing
about the product they sell, only about selling...those guys could be
selling refrigerators or mattresses, and maybe they were last week,
but it was a big turnoff for me.

Even if I was a fan of the stuff I would have been horrified at the
pressure tactics they lay on at that place...the whole thing just
really pissed me off.

Analogeezer

[William Sommerwerck]

Exactly the opposite of the AR/Dyna listening rooms in the '60s. You just sat
and listened. No one tried to sell you anything.

[n***@sbcglobal.netNOSPAM]

Post by William Sommerwerck
Exactly the opposite of the AR/Dyna listening rooms in the '60s. You just sat
and listened. No one tried to sell you anything.

And they stayed open for how long...?
--


Neil Henderson
Saqqara Records
http://www.saqqararecords.com

[George]

Post by n***@sbcglobal.netNOSPAM

Post by William Sommerwerck
Exactly the opposite of the AR/Dyna listening rooms in the '60s. You just

sat

Post by William Sommerwerck
and listened. No one tried to sell you anything.

And they stayed open for how long...?
--

Good point the function of "most" business is to make PROFIT, they do
that by selling
without the selling and the profit there really is no point to being in
business
George

[William Sommerwerck]

Post by George
Good point the function of "most" business is to make PROFIT,
they do that by selling[.] [W]ithout the selling and the profit there
really is no point to being in business.

Capitalist pig.

The purpose of a business is to provide a useful product or service. If the
business is run intelligently and efficiently, the profit will usually follow.
Focusing solely on profit usually runs a business into the ground.

The point of the showrooms was to promote AR's image, and thereby _increase_
sales.

[George]

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by George
Good point the function of "most" business is to make PROFIT,
they do that by selling[.] [W]ithout the selling and the profit there
really is no point to being in business.

Capitalist pig.
The purpose of a business is to provide a useful product or service. If the
business is run intelligently and efficiently, the profit will usually follow.
Focusing solely on profit usually runs a business into the ground.
The point of the showrooms was to promote AR's image, and thereby _increase_
sales.

Again I disagree we are in business to make profit , other wise we call
it a hobby
George

[George]

In article

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by George
Good point the function of "most" business is to make PROFIT,
they do that by selling[.] [W]ithout the selling and the profit there
really is no point to being in business.

Capitalist pig.
The purpose of a business is to provide a useful product or service. If the
business is run intelligently and efficiently, the profit will usually follow.
Focusing solely on profit usually runs a business into the ground.
The point of the showrooms was to promote AR's image, and thereby _increase_
sales.

repeat that last line one more time for this capitalist pig, please
Thanks , my point exactly
George

[n***@sbcglobal.netNOSPAM]

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by George
Good point the function of "most" business is to make PROFIT,
they do that by selling[.] [W]ithout the selling and the profit there
really is no point to being in business.

Capitalist pig.

Nice... completely uncalled for and demonstrating absolutely no knowledge
of business in general but nice... good flourish there... only thing you
missed was a well-placed "Fuck off" in front.

Post by William Sommerwerck
The purpose of a business is to provide a useful product or service.

No, no, no.... commie bastard (see how I threw that in? That's where you
missed the 'fuck off' part in your post) the purpose of a business is to
provide a livelihood for those involved in either owning the business or
being employed by said business... otherwise it's called a "hobby", or a
"non-profit organization", or a "government agency". The livelihood thing &
the profit thing go hand in hand. NOW... as far as providing a useful
product or service, that's simply the vehicle by which said livelihood may
be earned.

Post by William Sommerwerck
Focusing solely on profit usually runs a business into the ground.

That part is true. Good for you... you get a red star (note the 2nd
opportunity taken to reference the "commie" thing again) to put on your
forehead for the rest of the day.

Post by William Sommerwerck
The point of the showrooms was to promote AR's image, and thereby _increase_
sales.

OK, fine... did it work? Seems like something called "advertising" would've
worked in that regard too... then they could've used the undoubtedly high
overhead associated with rents in a retail district, & having to staff up,
& pay utilities, etc to actually move some product. But silly me, there's
that capitalist thinking again... better to just give people a paycheck for
showing up - kinda like the old Soviet Union did (and there's the
trifecta) - without them having to earn it by OMIGOD! expecting them to
SELL something!

Fun thread! You game for more?
--


Neil Henderson
Saqqara Records
http://www.saqqararecords.com

[Paul Stamler]

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by William Sommerwerck
The point of the showrooms was to promote AR's image, and thereby

_increase_

Post by William Sommerwerck
sales.

OK, fine... did it work? Seems like something called "advertising" would've
worked in that regard too...

They did both; AR and Dynaco advertised in all the hi-fi mags of the day,
and ran their salons in a couple of big cities as well.

Did it work? The speakers sold like hotcakes; lots and lots and lots of
people's first decent stereo was a pair of AR2ax's with a Dynaco amp and
preamp (and maybe turntable too), and lots of lawyers and psychiatrists had
AR3s. Many of them are still in service after a few woofer refoams. Oh, and
I believe the Dynaco Stereo 70 is still the best-selling power amp of all
time.

Yes, it worked.

Peace,
Paul

[Arny Krueger]

Post by Paul Stamler

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by William Sommerwerck
The point of the showrooms was to promote AR's image, and thereby

_increase_

Post by William Sommerwerck
sales.

OK, fine... did it work? Seems like something called "advertising"
would've worked in that regard too...

They did both; AR and Dynaco advertised in all the hi-fi mags of the
day, and ran their salons in a couple of big cities as well.
Did it work? The speakers sold like hotcakes; lots and lots and lots
of people's first decent stereo was a pair of AR2ax's with a Dynaco
amp and preamp (and maybe turntable too), and lots of lawyers and
psychiatrists had AR3s. Many of them are still in service after a few
woofer refoams. Oh, and I believe the Dynaco Stereo 70 is still the
best-selling power amp of all time.
Yes, it worked.

FWIW, agreed. AR isn't dominant today for business reasons that have very
little to do with how effectively their products were brought to market. The
market those products served changed, immensely. The mainstream of home hifi
went from high tech to appliances. In their day, AR3s helped define the high
end of audio.

[n***@sbcglobal.netNOSPAM]

Post by n***@sbcglobal.netNOSPAM

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by William Sommerwerck
The point of the showrooms was to promote AR's image, and thereby

_increase_

Post by William Sommerwerck
sales.

OK, fine... did it work? Seems like something called "advertising"

would've

Post by William Sommerwerck
worked in that regard too...

They did both; AR and Dynaco advertised in all the hi-fi mags of the day,
and ran their salons in a couple of big cities as well.
Did it work? The speakers sold like hotcakes;

Yes, I remember seeing some here & there, but at this point in the thread
it's more about giving a little "Biz101" info to a certain poster.
--


Neil Henderson
Saqqara Records
http://www.saqqararecords.com

[William Sommerwerck]

Post by n***@sbcglobal.netNOSPAM
Yes, I remember seeing some here & there, but at this point in the
thread it's more about giving a little "Biz101" info to a certain poster.

There are such things as morality and ethics.

Everyone has to make a living, and every business has to at least "break even,"
or it eventually goes out of business. But to run a business solely to make
money cannot be justified.

[TonyP]

Post by William Sommerwerck
There are such things as morality and ethics.
Everyone has to make a living, and every business has to at least "break even,"
or it eventually goes out of business. But to run a business solely to make
money cannot be justified.

Funny, that's how the vast majority work.

TonyP.

[George]

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by n***@sbcglobal.netNOSPAM
Yes, I remember seeing some here & there, but at this point in the
thread it's more about giving a little "Biz101" info to a certain poster.

There are such things as morality and ethics.
Everyone has to make a living, and every business has to at least "break even,"
or it eventually goes out of business. But to run a business solely to make
money cannot be justified.

The life blood of a business is PROFIT
without it you are not in business
George

[Sean Conolly]

Post by George

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by n***@sbcglobal.netNOSPAM
Yes, I remember seeing some here & there, but at this point in the
thread it's more about giving a little "Biz101" info to a certain poster.

There are such things as morality and ethics.
Everyone has to make a living, and every business has to at least "break even,"
or it eventually goes out of business. But to run a business solely to make
money cannot be justified.

The life blood of a business is PROFIT
without it you are not in business
George

How many years did it take Amazon.com to record their first profit?

I contend that the lifeblood of a business is staying in business. In the
'new' economy that may never include a profit, just a lot of hopeful
investors.

Sean

[n***@sbcglobal.netNOSPAM]

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by n***@sbcglobal.netNOSPAM
Yes, I remember seeing some here & there, but at this point in the
thread it's more about giving a little "Biz101" info to a certain poster.

There are such things as morality and ethics.
Everyone has to make a living, and every business has to at least "break even,"
or it eventually goes out of business. But to run a business solely to make
money cannot be justified.

William, you seem to think that the profit motive & morality/ethics are
mutually exclusive... let me tell you that they assuredly are not - or at
least they don't necessarily have to be. In fact, one could argue that a
business that is unethical & purely motivated by profit, will not survive
very long... fact of the matter is, most businesses that are like that are
really "scams" & not true businesses at all. A business can (and should)
have a strong profit motive & yet still be able to do business with both
vendors & customers in a completely ethical manner... in fact, businesses
that are run like that oftentimes are ones that manage to stay healthy &
stay around a long time because their vendors like dealing with them & want
to have an ongoing relationship because they get paid in full and on time;
and their customers like dealing with them & will want to come back because
they know they're not going to get sold a widget that doesn't "widge" in
the manner in which they expect it to. Doesn't mean that you can't sell a
customer the widget with the highest profit margin... as long as the
customer feels like he's getting what he wants out of the widget (and he in
actuality does), then he's happy, you're happy, everyone's happy.... 'cept
for you, I suppose? Also doesn't mean that you necessarily HAVE to sell a
customer the highest-profit widget - that's what the "budget widget bin" is
for, after all. It's right in the corner over there... feel free to have a
look.
--


Neil Henderson
Saqqara Records
http://www.saqqararecords.com

[Paul Stamler]

Post by n***@sbcglobal.netNOSPAM

Post by Paul Stamler
They did both; AR and Dynaco advertised in all the hi-fi mags of the day,
and ran their salons in a couple of big cities as well.
Did it work? The speakers sold like hotcakes;

Yes, I remember seeing some here & there, but at this point in the thread
it's more about giving a little "Biz101" info to a certain poster.

Okay, but there's more than one way to run a biz, and that's part of the
problem with a lot of B-school grads; they've only learned one model.

Another example: back in the 1950s and 1960s Zenith ran "display salons" in
certain cities. Like the AR/Dyna salons, no sales were made, but they
boosted sales at the dealers to the point where Zenith was one of the
best-selling TV brands, not to mention all the Trans-Oceanic radios. Until
the invasion of Japanese brands in the late 1960s, it was a very successful
biz model. But the invasion took out *all* of the US TV makers, just like
the Korean brands are now doing their best to take out the Japanese.

My point is that there's more than one way to skin a cat, or push a product.
Having a demo facility where there's a lot of traffic (say, Grand Central
Station) can supplement print advertising in a useful way. Gives people a
place to relax for a few minutes in a hectic day, imprints the brand well on
your mind with constant exposure to a lot of people (if, say, a quarter of a
million people pass through Grand Central every day of the week, that puts
your logo in front of them a lot better than an ad in High Fidelity...and
you get to do demos besides). Not doing sales on-site means you're not
competing with your dealers, and having worked for a dealer, I can tell you
that they really appreciate that.

Peace,
Paul

[Scott Dorsey]

Post by Paul Stamler
Another example: back in the 1950s and 1960s Zenith ran "display salons" in
certain cities. Like the AR/Dyna salons, no sales were made, but they
boosted sales at the dealers to the point where Zenith was one of the
best-selling TV brands, not to mention all the Trans-Oceanic radios. Until
the invasion of Japanese brands in the late 1960s, it was a very successful
biz model. But the invasion took out *all* of the US TV makers, just like
the Korean brands are now doing their best to take out the Japanese.

These salons are not _sales_ places, they are _advertising_ places, and
as such they are valuable sales tools just like any other advertising is.

The only way people can see how this equipment works is to actually see
it working. Now that consumer electronics is so homogenized and the
manufacturer margins are so slim, it doesn't make sense to spend money to
demonstrate products any more. But it used to, back when seeing the product
in actual use was a fairly rare event and so trying it out in a demo room
left a big impact on the customer.

Today, everyone hears stereo sound and television all the time, so the impact
is greatly lessened. Today building brand loyalty is more about image than
actually getting people to use the products, but that's because there is far
less difference between different brands than there used to be.

Post by Paul Stamler
My point is that there's more than one way to skin a cat, or push a product.
Having a demo facility where there's a lot of traffic (say, Grand Central
Station) can supplement print advertising in a useful way. Gives people a
place to relax for a few minutes in a hectic day, imprints the brand well on
your mind with constant exposure to a lot of people (if, say, a quarter of a
million people pass through Grand Central every day of the week, that puts
your logo in front of them a lot better than an ad in High Fidelity...and
you get to do demos besides). Not doing sales on-site means you're not
competing with your dealers, and having worked for a dealer, I can tell you
that they really appreciate that.

This would still work well for something like HDTV. Most folks have not seen
HDTV. If Sony put a booth up in Grand Central and demonstrated it, the
people walking by would get an impression of what it looks like, how it works,
and they would associate it with Sony. Thing is that Sony doesn't seem to
be trying to sell HDTV very hard....
--scott

[n***@sbcglobal.netNOSPAM]

Post by Paul Stamler
My point is that there's more than one way to skin a cat, or push a product.

Agreed.

Post by Paul Stamler
Having a demo facility where there's a lot of traffic (say, Grand Central
Station) can supplement print advertising in a useful way.

So can a TV spot schedule... and you don't have to pay rent/utilities/staff
salaries/etc. for that... all I'm saying is there are much more efficient
ways to get people interested in the product.

Post by Paul Stamler
Gives people a
place to relax for a few minutes in a hectic day, imprints the brand well on
your mind with constant exposure to a lot of people (if, say, a quarter of a
million people pass through Grand Central every day of the week, that puts
your logo in front of them a lot better than an ad in High Fidelity...and
you get to do demos besides).

Good points, but now you're mass-marketing, or attempting to do so, when
your real target audience is more in the High-Fidelity-reader category...
so again, if you want to mass market, go with a mass medium. OR... are you
really only trying to reach the few dozen people a day that come into the
store? In todays' dollars, the rent for a place like that would be... what,
$20k-$30k a month (guessing)? And you'd get a couple dozen people a day
coming in? Plus salaries, utilities, etc, you're looking at a cost of maybe
$50 per person reached!!! That's enormous! Yes, you can't place a hard
value on the experience of someone hearing the stuff, but that's also what
dealerships are for, and believe me $50 is more than you should pay per
**thousand** people reached in all but the most expensive of media. Again,
all I'm saying is that it's terribly inefficient.
--


Neil Henderson
Saqqara Records
http://www.saqqararecords.com

[William Sommerwerck]

Post by n***@sbcglobal.netNOSPAM
Good points, but now you're mass-marketing, or attempting to do so,
when your real target audience is more in the High-Fidelity-reader
category... So again, if you want to mass market, go with a mass medium.

You're presuming. I've met plenty of people who didn't "like" high-fidelity
sound simply because they'd never heard it. It's not just a matter of reaching
your audience, but creating a new audience.

As one poster pointed out, the experience got him to buy AR speakers. How many
thousands of other listeners over the years bought them, who might or would not
have?

You also overlook the fact that an important part of adevertising is simply
being _visible_.

[Mike Rivers]

Post by n***@sbcglobal.netNOSPAM

Post by Paul Stamler
Having a demo facility where there's a lot of traffic (say, Grand Central
Station) can supplement print advertising in a useful way.

So can a TV spot schedule... and you don't have to pay rent/utilities/staff
salaries/etc. for that... all I'm saying is there are much more efficient
ways to get people interested in the product.

When you're selling audiophile (and at the time, AR was "audiophile"
even though the word may not have been invented yet) gear, you don't
just sell the product, you sell the experience. This is what the AR
demo rooms, and the Bose showrooms sell. In 30 seconds, you can flash
a sexy image on a TV screen, but if someone sits on a couch for twenty
minutes reading a newspaper while listening to some nice music, that's
what shows him how things could be at home.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (***@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[William Sommerwerck]

Post by Paul Stamler
Did it work? The speakers sold like hotcakes; lots and lots and lots of
people's first decent stereo was a pair of AR2ax's with a Dynaco amp and
preamp (and maybe turntable too), and lots of lawyers and psychiatrists had
AR3s. Many of them are still in service after a few woofer refoams. Oh, and
I believe the Dynaco Stereo 70 is still the best-selling power amp of all
time.
Yes, it worked.

Up to a point. Dyna is gone, and AR no longer exists as the company it once was.
I know of no business that has public-demo rooms that _do not_ initiate sales.

[Paul Stamler]

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by Paul Stamler
Did it work? The speakers sold like hotcakes; lots and lots and lots of
people's first decent stereo was a pair of AR2ax's with a Dynaco amp and
preamp (and maybe turntable too), and lots of lawyers and psychiatrists had
AR3s. Many of them are still in service after a few woofer refoams. Oh, and
I believe the Dynaco Stereo 70 is still the best-selling power amp of all
time.
Yes, it worked.

Up to a point. Dyna is gone, and AR no longer exists as the company it once was.

What happened to them was what happened to the entire American stereo
industry in the 1970s. (And, in many ways, much of American manufacturing.)

First, there was the flood of cheap commodity products from Japan: Pioneer,
Sansui, Kenwood. They undersold all the American brands, and by heavily
marketing receivers rather than separates, they created a new, easy-to-use
concept of a system that wooed a lot of people into the "hi-fi" field who
had previously shied away. (The fact that you could buy the stuff at the PX
if you were a GI in Viet Nam helped.) The stuff wasn't really very good, but
it was good enough for most folks, and it was simple to use, and it was
*way* cheaper than the American competition.

Second, the founders sold their companies. The pioneers of high fidelity
took a look at the market in the early 1970s and realized what direction it
was going in, and they also looked at their lives. They were in their 50s
and 60s by then, and they'd made quite a decent amount of money, and it
looked like a good time to get out and do something else. Avery Fisher went
into philanthropy, Henry Kloss (KLH) wanted to build projection TVs, David
Hafler wanted to buy a farm. (He couldn't stay out, as it happens, but
that's another story.) So Fisher, and KLH, and AR, and Dynaco, and H. H.
Scott, and Marantz, and a bunch of other decent companies got sold to
conglomerates run solely by the bean-counters, who gutted them and used the
previously-prestigious names to sell Radio-Shack-level rebranded Taiwanese
crap, usually worse than the typical Pioneer product of the day. And the
American hi-fi business was deader than a doornail, until a few high-end
types like Audio Research and Mark Levinson re-invented it on a much smaller
scale in the late 1970s.

Kind of a pity, in a way; consider that in the 1960s a college student might
have a stereo system comprised of an AR turntable and AR2aX speakers with a
PAS-3 preamp and a Stereo 70 amp, and listen to Nonesuch records on it.
These days, it's more likely to be an all-in-one piece of molded plastic
junk from some cheap Korean manufacturer, and sound like absolute trash.
Which means we're raising a generation that never even came close to hearing
good recorded sound, and has no idea what they're missing, and thus the MP3
is king.

Peace,
Paul

[so what]

Post by Paul Stamler
Kind of a pity, in a way; consider that in the 1960s a college student might
have a stereo system comprised of an AR turntable and AR2aX speakers with a
PAS-3 preamp and a Stereo 70 amp, and listen to Nonesuch records on it.

Nelson Pass had a 1000-watt transistor amp that kept blowing up and a
TV-turned-into-an-oscilloscope, and he listened to Frank Zappa records
(Weasels).

[Kurt Albershardt]

Post by Paul Stamler
What happened to them was what happened to the entire American stereo
industry in the 1970s. (And, in many ways, much of American manufacturing.)

[[ Snip excellent but sad tale of an industry many of us started in ]]

Post by Paul Stamler
Second, the founders sold their companies. The pioneers of high fidelity
took a look at the market in the early 1970s and realized what direction it
was going in, and they also looked at their lives. They were in their 50s
and 60s by then, and they'd made quite a decent amount of money, and it
looked like a good time to get out and do something else. Avery Fisher went
into philanthropy, Henry Kloss (KLH) wanted to build projection TVs, David
Hafler wanted to buy a farm. (He couldn't stay out, as it happens, but
that's another story.) So Fisher, and KLH, and AR, and Dynaco, and H. H.
Scott, and Marantz, and a bunch of other decent companies got sold to
conglomerates run solely by the bean-counters, who gutted them and used the
previously-prestigious names to sell Radio-Shack-level rebranded Taiwanese
crap, usually worse than the typical Pioneer product of the day. And the
American hi-fi business was deader than a doornail, until a few high-end
types like Audio Research and Mark Levinson re-invented it on a much smaller
scale in the late 1970s.

Don't forget the anomaly of Sidney Harman, selling out to the Japanese, buying his company back for a pittance, and then building it into a formidable international competitor. No shortage of sadness surrounding that, either--but still a different story than most of his peers.

[William Sommerwerck]

Post by n***@sbcglobal.netNOSPAM

Post by William Sommerwerck
The point of the showrooms was to promote AR's image,
and thereby _increase_ sales.

OK, fine... did it work? Seems like something called "advertising"
would've worked in that regard too... then they could've used the
undoubtedly high overhead associated with rents in a retail district,
& having to staff up, & pay utilities, etc to actually move some product.

I don't know if it worked -- that is, if it generated sufficient new sales to
offset the costs of operation.

40 years ago, rents were probably much lower than they are today, with respect
to the total cost of running a business. (I don't know that as a fact.) I would
guess that the total cost of operation for both sites was $3000 a month, which
as focused advertising (you're demonstrating your product to self-selected
potential customers).

AR was, of course, a major advertiser in the hi-fi print media of that era.

Note, also, the canny choice of locations. Neither was in Boston. Both were in
New York, one in a train terminal, the other in one of Manhattan's principal
retail districts, through which people from all over the country passed each
day. Listening to hi-fi would be a good way to kill a few minutes.

Post by n***@sbcglobal.netNOSPAM
But silly me, there's that capitalist thinking again...

Yup. Money, money, money, money, money. Not self-improvement, not benefitting
your employees or community, but simply making money to line your own pockets.

You ought to read "Land's Polaroid" and/or "Insisting on the Impossible" to see
what happens (both good and bad, but mostly good) when someone runs a company
without putting "profit for its own sake" at the top of the list of "things to
do today." Dr. Land was extremely wealthy and idolized by most of his employees.
And not because he had a lot of money.

Post by n***@sbcglobal.netNOSPAM
better to just give people a paycheck for showing up - kinda like the
old Soviet Union did (and there's the trifecta) - without them having
to earn it by OMIGOD! expecting them to SELL something!

The AR listening rooms didn't sell anything -- except the company's image and
the "quality" of its products. There were one or two attendants who answered
questions, but did not initiate sales, as there were none.

These attendants not only had to be knowledgable, but had to make a good
appearance and treat people well. In other words, they had to be good salesmen,
even though they're weren't selling anything. That hardly falls into the
category of "getting a paycheck for showing up."

Post by n***@sbcglobal.netNOSPAM
Fun thread! You game for more?

Nope. I'm in interested in advice from people who run their businesses for no
other reason than to make money. Your values and morality are plain.

[George]

Post by William Sommerwerck
The AR listening rooms didn't sell anything -

neither did the magazine ads , I would guess by your logic!
they were all tools in the sales process, the process designed to
generate PROFITS for the company
George

[Kurt Albershardt]

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by n***@sbcglobal.netNOSPAM
But silly me, there's that capitalist thinking again...

Yup. Money, money, money, money, money. Not self-improvement, not benefitting
your employees or community, but simply making money to line your own pockets.
You ought to read "Land's Polaroid" and/or "Insisting on the Impossible" to see
what happens (both good and bad, but mostly good) when someone runs a company
without putting "profit for its own sake" at the top of the list of "things to
do today." Dr. Land was extremely wealthy and idolized by most of his employees.
And not because he had a lot of money.

See also Timberland, W.R. Gore, and a few others.

[George]

Post by Kurt Albershardt

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by n***@sbcglobal.netNOSPAM
But silly me, there's that capitalist thinking again...

Yup. Money, money, money, money, money. Not self-improvement, not benefitting
your employees or community, but simply making money to line your own pockets.
You ought to read "Land's Polaroid" and/or "Insisting on the Impossible" to see
what happens (both good and bad, but mostly good) when someone runs a company
without putting "profit for its own sake" at the top of the list of "things to
do today." Dr. Land was extremely wealthy and idolized by most of his employees.
And not because he had a lot of money.

See also Timberland, W.R. Gore, and a few others.

without the profit nothing is possible
George

[Kurt Albershardt]

Post by George

Post by Kurt Albershardt

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by n***@sbcglobal.netNOSPAM
But silly me, there's that capitalist thinking again...

Yup. Money, money, money, money, money. Not self-improvement, not
benefitting your employees or community, but simply making money to
line your own pockets.
You ought to read "Land's Polaroid" and/or "Insisting on the Impossible" to
see what happens (both good and bad, but mostly good) when someone runs a
company without putting "profit for its own sake" at the top of the list of
"things to do today." Dr. Land was extremely wealthy and idolized by most of
his employees. And not because he had a lot of money.

See also Timberland, W.R. Gore, and a few others.

without the profit nothing is possible

Just pointing out that a number of companies with the longest histories of profitability have put things other than profit at the top of their priorities. Profit is a result of those.

[n***@sbcglobal.netNOSPAM]

Post by Kurt Albershardt
Just pointing out that a number of companies with the longest histories

of profitability have put things other than profit at the top of their
priorities. Profit is a result of those.

Believe me, the mythology of plenty of companies rests in quotes like: "we
just wanted to provide a widget that people would think was a useful tool;
we didn't care if we made money or not", but if they hadn't had their eye
on the prize, they wouldn't have made it. Or, sometimes the founders have a
great idea & an idealistic outlook, but it takes real business skills &
bottom-line orientation by outsiders who are brought in to run the place in
order to keep the thing an actual going concern.
--


Neil Henderson
Saqqara Records
http://www.saqqararecords.com

[n***@sbcglobal.netNOSPAM]

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by n***@sbcglobal.netNOSPAM

Post by William Sommerwerck
The point of the showrooms was to promote AR's image,
and thereby _increase_ sales.

OK, fine... did it work? Seems like something called "advertising"
would've worked in that regard too... then they could've used the
undoubtedly high overhead associated with rents in a retail district,
& having to staff up, & pay utilities, etc to actually move some product.

I don't know if it worked -- that is, if it generated sufficient new sales to
offset the costs of operation.
40 years ago, rents were probably much lower than they are today, with respect
to the total cost of running a business. (I don't know that as a fact.) I would
guess that the total cost of operation for both sites was $3000 a month, which
as focused advertising (you're demonstrating your product to

self-selected

Post by William Sommerwerck
potential customers).
AR was, of course, a major advertiser in the hi-fi print media of that era.
Note, also, the canny choice of locations. Neither was in Boston. Both were in
New York, one in a train terminal, the other in one of Manhattan's principal
retail districts, through which people from all over the country passed each
day. Listening to hi-fi would be a good way to kill a few minutes.

Post by n***@sbcglobal.netNOSPAM
But silly me, there's that capitalist thinking again...

Yup. Money, money, money, money, money. Not self-improvement, not benefitting
your employees or community, but simply making money to line your own pockets.

Umm... no, a business doesn't have to be ALL about making money, but if it
doesn't make money, then all those high-minded things that you pretend to
fantasize are what an ideal business should be about will never happen.
Lots of businesses donate money to charities - do you think they'd be able
to do that if they didn't have profits? If they were barely scraping by,
having to wonder if they'd be able to make payroll from month to month, do
you think they'd be able to afford to cut a check for (insert name of your
favorite charity here). If a business had no profits, do you think they'd
be able to afford to drop $10k in the coffers of the neighborhood
association that's trying to renovate a park that the city has no funding
allocated for?
You also brought up morals with regard to profits - how moral do you think
it would be if a guy says to his wife & kids: "Honey, kids, I'm going to
quit my job & start this business that I'm pretty damn sure will have no
profit margin whatsoever - in fact, we'll be lucky if I can put food on the
table from week to week. And Joey, that thing about college you & I were
talking about last week? Well, you can forget about it. But it's something
I want to do & I think it will benefit the community. Sorry that you'll
have to be the ones to suffer because of it." Is THAT moral? I think it's
frickin' irresponsible & reprehensible.

Post by William Sommerwerck
Nope. I'm in interested in advice from people who run their businesses for no
other reason than to make money. Your values and morality are plain.

You have no clue what my morality & values are. You don't know that every
negotiation I do is above-board, no matter who I'm conducting business
with, do you? Well, it happens to be the case, whether it's in regard to my
own little business, or the company I work for as my main source of income.
I've never lied or misrepresented the facts in order to obtain monetary (or
any other kind of) gain.YET, I still aggressively go after the money...
why? Because I have a fiduciary responsibility to my company... they
entrust me to deliver the most revenue I possibly can, and I do not take
that trust lightly. Also, there are a lot of people that depend on me (or
if it weren't me, whoever else would be in that position); IOW, if I don't
deliver, than that could mean budget cuts, could possibly mean that we
might not be able to afford the latest whizbangthingamajiggy that might
make some guy slaving for an hourly wage's job a little easier; could also
possibly mean that some lower-level people might LOSE their job if the cuts
went deep enough... so you might say I actually have a moral obligation
**to achieve** the desired result. How's THAT for morality? Delivering that
which you are entrusted to? Fulfilling the responsibility that's placed at
your feet? Show me the moral dillemma there, William. There isn't any.

You don't earn much money, do you?
--


Neil Henderson
Saqqara Records
http://www.saqqararecords.com

[William Sommerwerck]

Post by n***@sbcglobal.netNOSPAM
You don't earn much money, do you?

That says it all, doesn't it?

[pH]

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by George
Good point the function of "most" business is to make PROFIT,
they do that by selling[.] [W]ithout the selling and the profit there
really is no point to being in business.

Capitalist pig.
The purpose of a business is to provide a useful product or service. If the
business is run intelligently and efficiently, the profit will usually follow.
Focusing solely on profit usually runs a business into the ground.

And society, as well.

Jeff

http://www.jefftturner.com

[George]

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 17:55:26 -0700, "William Sommerwerck"

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by George
Good point the function of "most" business is to make PROFIT,
they do that by selling[.] [W]ithout the selling and the profit there
really is no point to being in business.

Capitalist pig.
The purpose of a business is to provide a useful product or service. If the
business is run intelligently and efficiently, the profit will usually follow.
Focusing solely on profit usually runs a business into the ground.

And society, as well.

without profit both business and society fail, almost instantly
George

[Analogeezer]

Post by George

Post by n***@sbcglobal.netNOSPAM

Post by William Sommerwerck
Exactly the opposite of the AR/Dyna listening rooms in the '60s. You just

sat

Post by n***@sbcglobal.netNOSPAM

Post by William Sommerwerck
and listened. No one tried to sell you anything.

And they stayed open for how long...?
--

Good point the function of "most" business is to make PROFIT, they do
that by selling
without the selling and the profit there really is no point to being in
business
George

Yeah the problem is most salesman are idiots, they never adapt their
sales technique to the customer.

I get this crap every time I buy a car...I know a helluva lot about
cars and make that plain up front, yet they give me the same stupid
spiel they give everyone.

I once had a woman salesdroid tell me the truck I was looking at was
safer because it had a "dual diagonal braking system, where if one set
of brake circuits go out the second one kicks in".

I looked at her and said "well that's been pretty much standard on
every car made since about 1957".

The guy at the Bose store was sticking to his script, no matter what I
said.

If these people would adapt to the customer they'd sell a lot more
product.

Analogeezer

[Mike Rivers]

Post by Analogeezer
Yeah the problem is most salesman are idiots, they never adapt their
sales technique to the customer.
I get this crap every time I buy a car...I know a helluva lot about
cars and make that plain up front, yet they give me the same stupid
spiel they give everyone.

Creeping meatballism is everywhere. I don't expect a salesman in the
computer department at Best Buy to know which CDs will work with my
TASCAM recorder, but when going to a speciality store, I expect the
salespeople will know more than the obvious about their products.

I have the AT&T Free-2-Go (preapid) cellular telephone service. Don't
change the subject - it works for me. Twice recently I've gone to the
AT&T store to try to find out something that I couldn't find on their
web site. First time was when they had a new pricing plan that looked
like it would save me quite a bit of money. My original plan was the
same rate per minute for local or long distance, roaming or on-net.
The new plan was considerably cheaper on-net and there was a different
rate when roaming. I wanted to find out where I might be that would be
roaming, and whether the price per minute when off-net was the price
for the call or an additional cost over the standard rate.

All he could do was show me a "coverage map" which wasn't clear as to
where their network was, and he didn't know, nor wasn't willing to ask
someone else or try to look up the answer to my question about rates.
He did hand me a (desk) telephone and dialed the Customer Service
phone number for me. I took some delight in standing there at the
counter with their telephone in my hand, tying up their telephone and
occupying space while on hold through three different people, the last
of whom said "I'll send you all the information in the mail." Five
weeks later, I got "all the information" in the mail, which didn't
answer my questions.

The second recent visit, I was inquiring about the cost of a
replacement for my phone. Given that it's going on 3 years old and
probably could use a new battery, with all the free and $19.95 phones,
I thought that a new phone might be cheaper than a new battery. The
only thing he could offer there was a new phone along with new
activation (and a new number) for $100. He couldn't tell me what
characteristics a phone that I bought elsewhere needed to have in
order to be compatible with the service that I was using, but he did
direct me to Best Buy (or one of their other retailers) who had
several phones and would know which ones I could use. Best Buy had
only the same phone (same price, same service) as the AT&T store.

I passed by a generic cellular phone store (who also was an AT&T
dealer) yesterday, dropped in, and asked my same questions. The
salesman pulled out a large map, pointed out the different colored
areas, asked me where I was likely to be going with the phone, and
showed me that I would be on-net nearly all the time. When I asked
about a replacement phone, he explained that there really was only one
phone that anyone solde that worked on that network (the same one that
the AT&T store and Best Buy had) and the price deal was the same. So
much for competition. However, he was aware of rebates on that phone
and make a couple of phone calls to find out if I was eligible to
recieve them. Turns out that to just buy the phone outright was $179
with no rebates available.

He recommended that I buy a new battery for my phone for $25 and keep
it as long as it continued to work. That's what I did, and if I ever
want to change my service, I know of a store with competent sales
people where I can feel confident that I'm getting enough of the story
to make up my own mind.

Decent sales help is out there, you just can't expect to find it
everywhere.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (***@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[green55]

Exactly the opposite of the AR/Dyna listening rooms in the '60s. You just
sat and listened. No one tried to sell you anything.

And they stayed open for how long...?

I remember many hi fi places that you could bring your favorite records
and listen without any salesmen closing in on you.

There was a place in Wynnewood that was like that. If you talked to a
salesman, he
was far more interested in talking you out of a sale.

Mind you these guys were very knowledgable. I wonder what they are doing
now?

[George]

Post by green55
There was a place in Wynnewood that was like that. If you talked to a
salesman, he
was far more interested in talking you out of a sale.
Mind you these guys were very knowledgable. I wonder what they are doing
now?

running presidential elections
George

[William Sommerwerck]

Post by green55
There was a place in Wynnewood that was like that. If you talked to
a salesman, he was far more interested in talking you out of a sale.

Pennsylvania? I worked for Barclay Recording.

Post by green55
Mind you these guys were very knowledgable. I wonder what they
are doing now?

Something constructive, I hope.

[green55]

That's the place. Could it have been you that talked me out of that dbx 119?

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by green55
There was a place in Wynnewood that was like that. If you talked to
a salesman, he was far more interested in talking you out of a sale.

Pennsylvania? I worked for Barclay Recording.

Post by green55
Mind you these guys were very knowledgable. I wonder what they
are doing now?

Something constructive, I hope.

[William Sommerwerck]

Post by green55

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by green55
There was a place in Wynnewood that was like that. If you talked to
a salesman, he was far more interested in talking you out of a sale.

Pennsylvania? I worked for Barclay Recording.

That's the place. Could it have been you that talked me out of that dbx 119?

Was your salesman bearded and obnoxious? That was me. I worked in sales from
late 1977 through 1978, and perhaps some in 1979 and early 1980, at which point
BR&E went out of business. Several ex-customers said they appreciated that we
usually knew what we were talking about. Many also enjoyed Lou Maresca's
absolutely devastating Donald Fagen impersonation.

In any case, I appreciate the compliment, regardless of which employee deserves
it. (All did, as far as I was concerned.) I would not normally have tried to
talk a customer out of a purchase (we worked on commission), unless I thought it
was inappropriate, or wouldn't do what you expected.

[Robert Morein]

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by green55
There was a place in Wynnewood that was like that. If you talked to
a salesman, he was far more interested in talking you out of a sale.

Pennsylvania? I worked for Barclay Recording.

Post by green55
Mind you these guys were very knowledgable. I wonder what they
are doing now?

Something constructive, I hope.

You worked for Clay?
What's he doing now? As I recall, he decided not to pursue neurosurgery.

That store was amazing.

[William Sommerwerck]

Post by Robert Morein

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by green55
There was a place in Wynnewood that was like that. If you talked to
a salesman, he was far more interested in talking you out of a sale.

Pennsylvania? I worked for Barclay Recording.

Post by green55
Mind you these guys were very knowledgable. I wonder what they
are doing now?

Something constructive, I hope.

You worked for Clay?
What's he doing now? As I recall, he decided not to pursue neurosurgery.

Dr. Barclay moved to Moosebreath and worked for Crown for about 15 years. They
dumped him (for reasons I don't understand), which was surely Crown's loss. Clay
was a brilliant salesman and promoter. I think he told me what he was doing, but
I don't remember.

Post by Robert Morein
That store was amazing.

Is that a compliment? <grin>

If you want to take this off-line, write me.

[Peter B.]

Post by William Sommerwerck
Exactly the opposite of the AR/Dyna listening rooms in the '60s. You just
sat and listened. No one tried to sell you anything.
And they stayed open for how long...?
I remember many hi fi places that you could bring your favorite records
and listen without any salesmen closing in on you.
There was a place in Wynnewood that was like that. If you talked to a
salesman, he
was far more interested in talking you out of a sale.
Mind you these guys were very knowledgable. I wonder what they are doing
now?

There is a hifi place near my house that is like that. Every now and
then I stop in and listen to the latest audio equipment with no
intention of buying and they know that. The sales people love to stop
and talk. They leave to talk to a new customer when one comes in but
it's a nice place to hang out on a saturday afternoon. One salesman
seemed to get upset with me because I was considering buying speakers
without first having my own house to live in. Salesman and financial
planner plus he was into audio before the transistor even came out. He
can go on for hours telling excellent stories of audio stuff. Lots of
history. This shop has been open for longer than I can remember and I
don't see it closing anytime soon. I love to go to the "meet the
designer' parties they throw now and then.

Peter

[William Sommerwerck]

Post by Peter B.
There is a hifi place near my house that is like that. Every now and
then I stop in and listen to the latest audio equipment with no
intention of buying and they know that. The sales people love to stop
and talk. They leave to talk to a new customer when one comes in but
it's a nice place to hang out on a saturday afternoon. One salesman
seemed to get upset with me because I was considering buying speakers
without first having my own house to live in. Salesman and financial
planner plus he was into audio before the transistor even came out. He
can go on for hours telling excellent stories of audio stuff. Lots of
history. This shop has been open for longer than I can remember and I
don't see it closing anytime soon. I love to go to the "meet the
designer' parties they throw now and then.

No matter how nice you are to customers (and potential customers), you still
have to run your business in a businesslike manner, and not let the "fun" aspect
of it take over. You have to work at turning the casual listener into the
regular buyer. etc, etc, etc

[n***@sbcglobal.netNOSPAM]

Post by William Sommerwerck
No matter how nice you are to customers (and potential customers), you still
have to run your business in a businesslike manner, and not let the "fun" aspect
of it take over. You have to work at turning the casual listener into the
regular buyer. etc, etc, etc

William... shame on you - thinking like that would involve a PROFIT
MOTIVE!!!

:D
--


Neil Henderson
Saqqara Records
http://www.saqqararecords.com

[William Sommerwerck]

Post by George

Post by William Sommerwerck
No matter how nice you are to customers (and potential customers), you

still

Post by William Sommerwerck
have to run your business in a businesslike manner, and not let the "fun"

aspect

Post by William Sommerwerck
of it take over. You have to work at turning the casual listener into the
regular buyer. etc, etc, etc

William... shame on you - thinking like that would involve a PROFIT
MOTIVE!!!

Not at all -- it means putting the important things first.

[George]

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by George

Post by William Sommerwerck
No matter how nice you are to customers (and potential customers), you

still

Post by William Sommerwerck
have to run your business in a businesslike manner, and not let the "fun"

aspect

Post by William Sommerwerck
of it take over. You have to work at turning the casual listener into the
regular buyer. etc, etc, etc

William... shame on you - thinking like that would involve a PROFIT
MOTIVE!!!

Not at all -- it means putting the important things first.

I guess providing jobs and being a important part of the community isn't
important
none of this happens unless a business remains in business. In order for
that to happen the business MUST first of all generate profits
George

[George]

In article

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by George

Post by William Sommerwerck
No matter how nice you are to customers (and potential customers), you

still

Post by William Sommerwerck
have to run your business in a businesslike manner, and not let the "fun"

aspect

Post by William Sommerwerck
of it take over. You have to work at turning the casual listener into the
regular buyer. etc, etc, etc

William... shame on you - thinking like that would involve a PROFIT
MOTIVE!!!

Not at all -- it means putting the important things first.

there are all sorts of ways to put(what I read as your) important things
first
you can voulenteer, donate your income, work on commtties, pick up trash
but none of these are a function of being in business\
they are the benifits that a profitable business can provide
a unprofitable business is a drain on the community, the lenders, the
customers, it most likely is a eye sore and very likely to be unethical
beacuse it does not have the PROFITS to be a upstanding member of society
you see AFA business goes it really does all come down to PROFITS
with out Profit you do not have business without business you do not
have employment, without employment you do not have income, without
income you are a burden to the rest of us that make money and pay taxes
I perfer NOT to be a burden, which is why I earn my keep in this world,
I earn that keep by running a profitable company
George

[so what]

Post by George
I guess providing jobs and being a important part of the community isn't
important
none of this happens unless a business remains in business. In order for
that to happen the business MUST first of all generate profits

No, first it must do something someone wants to pay for.

[George]

Post by so what

Post by George
I guess providing jobs and being a important part of the community isn't
important
none of this happens unless a business remains in business. In order for
that to happen the business MUST first of all generate profits

No, first it must do something someone wants to pay for.

pay a PROFITABLE amount for
I could start a carDealership(assuming I had the resources) that sells
Lexuxs andVolvo's for twenty dollars each
How long do you think I could pay the employees?
After all this IS something that people would pay for and there clearly
is no profit involved.
george

[William Sommerwerck]

Post by n***@sbcglobal.netNOSPAM

Post by William Sommerwerck
Exactly the opposite of the AR/Dyna listening rooms in the '60s.
You just sat and listened. No one tried to sell you anything.

And they stayed open for how long...?

Duh!!! I said "listening room." Do you know what a listening room is?

There were two of them, one in Grand Central Station, and the other on Sixth
Avenue (I think). THEY WERE NOT RETAIL STORES. The idea was to give listeners a
quiet environment, free of sales pressure, for them to experience AR products
without competition from other products.

I think they were open about a decade.

[n***@sbcglobal.netNOSPAM]

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by n***@sbcglobal.netNOSPAM

Post by William Sommerwerck
Exactly the opposite of the AR/Dyna listening rooms in the '60s.
You just sat and listened. No one tried to sell you anything.

And they stayed open for how long...?

Duh!!! I said "listening room." Do you know what a listening room is?

Yes, I do... it's a place where companies throw money into the bottmless
pit of "no return on investment" it's a place where they COULD be moving
product - as well as providing a pleasant environment wherein people could
experience their offerings in a relaxed manner - but choose not to, so that
their resources can be sucked dry by having to fund OTHER venues through
which they actually sell their stuff. Please reference Gateway computer
stores... a nice, relaxed place where you could look at/play with/demo
their computers, but not actually buy something & take it home - something
that people have, oddly enough, become accustomed to expecting from a
"STORE"... any of those places left? Nope.

Post by William Sommerwerck
There were two of them, one in Grand Central Station, and the other on Sixth
Avenue (I think). THEY WERE NOT RETAIL STORES. The idea was to give listeners a
quiet environment, free of sales pressure, for them to experience AR products
without competition from other products.

Barnes & Noble is essentially a "reading room", but you can buy books
there, too, you know (and Starbucks coffee). Think they'll be in business
for longer than AR?

Post by William Sommerwerck
I think they were open about a decade.

OOPS! Yeah, I guess that answers my last question.
--


Neil Henderson
Saqqara Records
http://www.saqqararecords.com

[William Sommerwerck]

Post by n***@sbcglobal.netNOSPAM
Yes, I do... it's a place where companies throw money into the bottmless
pit of "no return on investment" it's a place where they COULD be moving
product - as well as providing a pleasant environment wherein people could
experience their offerings in a relaxed manner - but choose not to, so that
their resources can be sucked dry by having to fund OTHER venues through
which they actually sell their stuff. Please reference Gateway computer
stores... a nice, relaxed place where you could look at/play with/demo
their computers, but not actually buy something & take it home - something
that people have, oddly enough, become accustomed to expecting from a
"STORE"... any of those places left? Nope.

You can't draw an exact parallel. AR was not in retail sales; Gateway was. AR
could not be competing with its own dealers.

[Scott Dorsey]

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by n***@sbcglobal.netNOSPAM
Yes, I do... it's a place where companies throw money into the bottmless
pit of "no return on investment" it's a place where they COULD be moving
product - as well as providing a pleasant environment wherein people could
experience their offerings in a relaxed manner - but choose not to, so that
their resources can be sucked dry by having to fund OTHER venues through
which they actually sell their stuff. Please reference Gateway computer
stores... a nice, relaxed place where you could look at/play with/demo
their computers, but not actually buy something & take it home - something
that people have, oddly enough, become accustomed to expecting from a
"STORE"... any of those places left? Nope.

You can't draw an exact parallel. AR was not in retail sales; Gateway was. AR
could not be competing with its own dealers.

But Bose can be?
--scott

[William Sommerwerck]

Post by Scott Dorsey

Post by William Sommerwerck
You can't draw an exact parallel. AR was not in retail sales; Gateway was.
AR could not be competing with its own dealers.

But Bose can be?

Well, when you're the most-trusted name in audio, you can get away with
anything!

Bose is a tightly controlled franchise, with few dealers and no discounting. If
they limit their "retail" sales to areas where there are few or no regular
dealers, they can probably get away with it.

[Kurt Albershardt]

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by n***@sbcglobal.netNOSPAM

Post by William Sommerwerck
Exactly the opposite of the AR/Dyna listening rooms in the '60s.
You just sat and listened. No one tried to sell you anything.

And they stayed open for how long...?

Duh!!! I said "listening room." Do you know what a listening room is?
There were two of them, one in Grand Central Station, and the other on Sixth
Avenue (I think). THEY WERE NOT RETAIL STORES. The idea was to give listeners a
quiet environment, free of sales pressure, for them to experience AR products
without competition from other products.

Linn has similar setups in several UK locations.

[Arny Krueger]

Post by n***@sbcglobal.netNOSPAM

Post by William Sommerwerck
Exactly the opposite of the AR/Dyna listening rooms in the '60s. You
just sat and listened. No one tried to sell you anything.

And they stayed open for how long...?

Good question.

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/vintage/messages/79742.html

1959 Opening of the AR Music Room in Grand Central Terminal, NYC.

1974 Closing of the Music Room in Grand Central Terminal, NYC

15 years, not a bad run for Audio.

[n***@sbcglobal.netNOSPAM]

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by n***@sbcglobal.netNOSPAM

Post by William Sommerwerck
Exactly the opposite of the AR/Dyna listening rooms in the '60s. You
just sat and listened. No one tried to sell you anything.

And they stayed open for how long...?

Good question.
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/vintage/messages/79742.html
1959 Opening of the AR Music Room in Grand Central Terminal, NYC.
1974 Closing of the Music Room in Grand Central Terminal, NYC
15 years, not a bad run for Audio.

Thanks, Arny... no, that's not bad... bet they could have stayed up longer
if they'd used those high-cost facilities to move some product as well, but
no that's not too bad.

And imagine, you managed to convey that info without having said
"capitalist pig" or anything remotely similar.
--


Neil Henderson
Saqqara Records
http://www.saqqararecords.com

[Arny Krueger]

Post by n***@sbcglobal.netNOSPAM

Post by Arny Krueger

Post by n***@sbcglobal.netNOSPAM

Post by William Sommerwerck
Exactly the opposite of the AR/Dyna listening rooms in the '60s.
You just sat and listened. No one tried to sell you anything.

And they stayed open for how long...?

Good question.
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/vintage/messages/79742.html
1959 Opening of the AR Music Room in Grand Central Terminal, NYC.
1974 Closing of the Music Room in Grand Central Terminal, NYC
15 years, not a bad run for Audio.

Thanks, Arny... no, that's not bad... bet they could have stayed up
longer if they'd used those high-cost facilities to move some product
as well, but no that's not too bad.

I would say that when they opened the place, they had enough mind share and
market share and were successful enough at taking it to the bank, that the
investment in an image place probably paid off. People got turned on to high
fidelity sound at Grand Central station, and then actually bought the
equipment at the specialty store on the other end of the line, closer to
home. You don't want to try to carry a pair or even just one AR3s home on
the train!

By the time 1974 rolled around, high fidelity was a completely different
business. They lost their dominant position. Audio stopped being high tech.
More audio was being sold in appliance stores than specialty stores.

Post by n***@sbcglobal.netNOSPAM
And imagine, you managed to convey that info without having said
"capitalist pig" or anything remotely similar.

Some people need to get back on their meds, I guess.

[Robert Orban]

Post by n***@sbcglobal.netNOSPAM

Post by William Sommerwerck
Exactly the opposite of the AR/Dyna listening rooms in the '60s. You just

sat

Post by William Sommerwerck
and listened. No one tried to sell you anything.

And they stayed open for how long...?

When I was a kid of 14, I spent a LOT of time in the AR listening room at
Grand Central Station, which was really an oasis. And lo and behold, the
first serious speakers I bought were AR2s.

Two years later, I heard a pair of Quad ESLs (the ones now known as ESL 57s)
at Harvey Radio. My jaw dropped, and the AR2s were outta there. But I still
remember that AR listening room as a thoroughly class act.

[George]

Post by Analogeezer
Even if I was a fan of the stuff I would have been horrified at the
pressure tactics they lay on at that place...the whole thing just
really pissed me off.
Analogeezer

you should have sat for the demo
it is text book salemenship, forward and aggressive
but a excellent demostration in selling technique
many do not have the knowledge and understanding that you have and Bose
salespersons see these people as lambs waiting for the slaughter!!
george

[Rob Reedijk]

Post by George
you should have sat for the demo
it is text book salemenship, forward and aggressive
but a excellent demostration in selling technique
many do not have the knowledge and understanding that you have and Bose
salespersons see these people as lambs waiting for the slaughter!!
george

So have fun with it! They are highly trained to sell something under
a specific procedure. A number of times I have looked at stereo
equipment or VCRs and had the salespeople hook them up to run specific
tests. It is obvious from how challenging this can be for them that
they rarely are asked to do such things. But these are not Bose stores.
They obviously need to control how everything is done. Bring in your own
music. Get them to hook up all kinds of things. Or didn't Scott once
suggest a test where you get them to crank the system through the
speakers but listen with headphones for distortion caused by the
vibrations interacting with the CD player? Or just for fun, record a
CD with one channel with its polarity inverted. If the saleman can even
tell the differnce, get him to try to solve it. If not, just go and flip
the polarity of the wire leading to one speaker (though I am guessing
that Bose speakers do not hook up with bare wire) and you will have
fixed it. But then after that, everything else will sound wrong!

Rob R.

[Analogeezer]

Post by George

Post by Analogeezer
Even if I was a fan of the stuff I would have been horrified at the
pressure tactics they lay on at that place...the whole thing just
really pissed me off.
Analogeezer

you should have sat for the demo
it is text book salemenship, forward and aggressive
but a excellent demostration in selling technique
many do not have the knowledge and understanding that you have and Bose
salespersons see these people as lambs waiting for the slaughter!!
george

No the guy was a shitty salesman, he should have immediately realized
I wasn't some dumb yuppie and altered his sales pitch...but all he had
to work with was the script he learned at the "Bose Factory Training".

He might as well been trying to sell me a toaster.

Analogeezer

[George]

Post by Analogeezer

Post by George

Post by Analogeezer
Even if I was a fan of the stuff I would have been horrified at the
pressure tactics they lay on at that place...the whole thing just
really pissed me off.
Analogeezer

you should have sat for the demo
it is text book salemenship, forward and aggressive
but a excellent demostration in selling technique
many do not have the knowledge and understanding that you have and Bose
salespersons see these people as lambs waiting for the slaughter!!
george

No the guy was a shitty salesman, he should have immediately realized
I wasn't some dumb yuppie and altered his sales pitch...but all he had
to work with was the script he learned at the "Bose Factory Training".
He might as well been trying to sell me a toaster.
Analogeezer

perhaps, maybe even likely
but I do believe Bose has developed a sales training program that works
on "most" and you will never sell everyone
you wouln't have bought regardless IMO
so him/her adapting was not going to close a sale with you
George

[Scott Dorsey]

Post by Analogeezer

Post by George

Post by Analogeezer
Even if I was a fan of the stuff I would have been horrified at the
pressure tactics they lay on at that place...the whole thing just
really pissed me off.
Analogeezer

you should have sat for the demo
it is text book salemenship, forward and aggressive
but a excellent demostration in selling technique
many do not have the knowledge and understanding that you have and Bose
salespersons see these people as lambs waiting for the slaughter!!
george

No the guy was a shitty salesman, he should have immediately realized
I wasn't some dumb yuppie and altered his sales pitch...but all he had
to work with was the script he learned at the "Bose Factory Training".
He might as well been trying to sell me a toaster.

Right. Altering your sales pitch isn't worth the effort, though, when
most customers are all the same. It might get you a little bit more sales,
but not much. And they can give the standard pitch to five bozos off the
street in the time they would spend talking to you. The name of the game
is getting in, delivering the pitch, closing the sale, and getting to the
next one as quickly as possible. There are so many suckers lined up that
it is not worth spending any time dealing with anyone else.
--scott

[Mike Rivers]

Post by Analogeezer
No the guy was a shitty salesman, he should have immediately realized
I wasn't some dumb yuppie and altered his sales pitch...but all he had
to work with was the script he learned at the "Bose Factory Training".
He might as well been trying to sell me a toaster.

For what it's worth, when I went to Best Buy looking for a new
microwave oven, I asked the salesman what was different about them
that would lead me to choosing one over another. He said they were all
pretty much the same and it didn't really make any difference.
Instead, I got a new fan belt for my 25 year old Magic Chef and it's
still working.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers (***@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

[Bill Lorentzen]

IN the early days of desktop computers, one of the first big chains found
that the less the sales people knew about computers, the more they sold. The
knowledgable guys gave the customer choices, and they got confused and had
to leave, "to think about it." Then they went to another store where the
salesguy said "Buy an IBM." They knew what IBM was, so they bought it.

The reason Analogeazer didn't buy was he knew too much. Most people know
nothing about audio, so, equally ignorant sales people are best for them.

Bill L

Post by Analogeezer
Last weekend I was out with the wife/kid and my mom...shopping for
back to school clothes. This was out of town for me (down in NC).
We're at one of these large outdoor shoparama things, and towards the
end of the day, my wife and mom want to go into some purse store or
something, which just happens to be next door to the "BOSE Factory
Outlet Store" or something like that.
I'm hot and bored so I figure "I'll check this place out and see what
it's like".
So me and the boy go in there......JEEZZZZZ I've been less assaulted
by creepy sales droids in a car dealer than this place, talk about
high pressure!!
I get five steps into the place and a "sales counselor" walks up and
starts hitting on me.
I explain I'm just hanging out there while the fems shop next
door....but he's not taking no for an answer.
He asks me if I'm familiar with Bose and I say something to the effect
of "well actually I'm more into Pro Audio, and the name Bose in Pro
Audio is pretty much persona non-grata...we generally think that Bose
Pro Audio products suck"
So the guy keeps up the sales pap, to which I reply "well if I was
gonna drop some serious cash on a home stereo I figure I'd be looking
at Bryston and B&W or something like that".
Meanwhile I'm noticing they have these "mini stereo" things that are
like $2,000....I'm thinking "sheessshhhhh, who buys this crap!"
The guy offered to take me in the back as they were starting a demo
soon, and I finally said "well I'm sure it sounds nice but the way you
have this store setup in no way resembles anybody's actual living room
so I don't know how your demo would translate to an actual space where
this stuff would get used".
He finally backs off and shortly after that my wife and mom show up to
rescue me.
Anyway, the whole experience left me really turned off, it reminded me
a whole lot of car dealers....salespeople that know virtually nothing
about the product they sell, only about selling...those guys could be
selling refrigerators or mattresses, and maybe they were last week,
but it was a big turnoff for me.
Even if I was a fan of the stuff I would have been horrified at the
pressure tactics they lay on at that place...the whole thing just
really pissed me off.
Analogeezer

[George]

Post by Bill Lorentzen
IN the early days of desktop computers, one of the first big chains found
that the less the sales people knew about computers, the more they sold. The
knowledgable guys gave the customer choices, and they got confused and had
to leave, "to think about it." Then they went to another store where the
salesguy said "Buy an IBM." They knew what IBM was, so they bought it.
The reason Analogeazer didn't buy was he knew too much. Most people know
nothing about audio, so, equally ignorant sales people are best for them.

selling is far eyond knowing the technical aspects of your lines
it is way more about addressing basic hunam traits of wanting to feel
smart,doing the right thing,feeling good about oneself, fitting into a
desired group
the salesman who can identify these needs in the buyer and make the
buyer feel he is satisfying one of these needs will get the sale
some buyers are very spec and tech orientated and for them a salesman
with "the facts and just the facts" works best
most buyers are not as much concerned if you know a comb filter from a
hair dryer.
they are trying to do one of the above basic human traits,and if you
can help them to that end , a career in sales can be very fulfilling
both finacially and personally
if you can not see these needs as primary to the sale, or are
uncomfortable getting so far into your customers mindset, you best stick
to applications support.
George

[Kurt Albershardt]

Post by George
selling is far eyond knowing the technical aspects of your lines
it is way more about addressing basic hunam traits of wanting to feel
smart,doing the right thing,feeling good about oneself, fitting into a
desired group
the salesman who can identify these needs in the buyer and make the
buyer feel he is satisfying one of these needs will get the sale

Situation
Problem
Implication
Need-payoff


anyone?

[William Sommerwerck]

Post by Bill Lorentzen
IN the early days of desktop computers, one of the first big chains found
that the less the sales people knew about computers, the more they sold. The
knowledgable guys gave the customer choices, and they got confused and had
to leave, "to think about it." Then they went to another store where the
salesguy said "Buy an IBM." They knew what IBM was, so they bought it.

This is infortunately true, and one of the reasons I don't like selling.
Salesmanship is too often about convincing the customer to buy something, rather
than helping him/her make the right decision.

I once worked with a guy who was the least-knowledgable of anyone in the store
about what we sold. He sold more than any of us.

[George]

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by Bill Lorentzen
IN the early days of desktop computers, one of the first big chains found
that the less the sales people knew about computers, the more they sold. The
knowledgable guys gave the customer choices, and they got confused and had
to leave, "to think about it." Then they went to another store where the
salesguy said "Buy an IBM." They knew what IBM was, so they bought it.

This is infortunately true, and one of the reasons I don't like selling.
Salesmanship is too often about convincing the customer to buy something, rather
than helping him/her make the right decision.
I once worked with a guy who was the least-knowledgable of anyone in the store
about what we sold. He sold more than any of us.

Sorry n, but I can see why you failed at sales
it is NOT about convincing a customer to buy something
it is about filling a customers needs
this is very basic stuff
As a company owner my first concern is the profitability of the business
beacuse only from profit can I secure a good life for my employees,
heath care, pay taxes, invest in the future
you seem to put forth the image of Profits being puiles of money I roll
around naked on while watching my workers suffer for slave wages
Profits are the honest reward for hard work
George

[n***@sbcglobal.netNOSPAM]

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by Bill Lorentzen
IN the early days of desktop computers, one of the first big chains found
that the less the sales people knew about computers, the more they sold. The
knowledgable guys gave the customer choices, and they got confused and had
to leave, "to think about it." Then they went to another store where the
salesguy said "Buy an IBM." They knew what IBM was, so they bought it.

This is infortunately true, and one of the reasons I don't like selling.
Salesmanship is too often about convincing the customer to buy something, rather
than helping him/her make the right decision.

Disagree... unless you have a lousy product or product selection, there's a
pretty good chance that helping the customer make the right decision will
also involve a sale of one of your products... I mean, if you're selling
stereos, and the guy's there looking for a stereo, chances are you've got
one that may suit him. If you're selling computers, and the guy is there
telling you he's looking for a computer... you follow? Now, it's possible
that someone down the street is selling a better model, but if you don't
believe in your product you shouldn't be there selling it - you should get
a job down the street.
--


Neil Henderson
Saqqara Records
http://www.saqqararecords.com

[William Sommerwerck]

Post by n***@sbcglobal.netNOSPAM
Disagree... unless you have a lousy product or product selection, there's a
pretty good chance that helping the customer make the right decision will
also involve a sale of one of your products...

I need to clarify what I meant a bit.

There is a difference -- as another poster so clearly pointed out -- between
helping the customer make the right decision, and manipulating the customer's
emotions to get him to buy something. I consider the latter unethical. Which is
why I'm a poor salesman.

Post by n***@sbcglobal.netNOSPAM
I mean, if you're selling
stereos, and the guy's there looking for a stereo, chances are you've got
one that may suit him. If you're selling computers, and the guy is there
telling you he's looking for a computer... you follow? Now, it's possible
that someone down the street is selling a better model, but if you don't
believe in your product you shouldn't be there selling it -- you should get
a job down the street.

This isn't always possible. Indeed, the most-successful salespeople are those
who are less-interested in the quality of the product or whether it meets the
customer's needs than in figuring out what drives him.

One good thing I can say about Barclay Recording & Electronics is that Clay
Barclay let the salespeople take on new product lines without consulting with
him. "If you like the product and think you can sell it, then we should carry
it."

[George]

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by n***@sbcglobal.netNOSPAM
Disagree... unless you have a lousy product or product selection, there's a
pretty good chance that helping the customer make the right decision will
also involve a sale of one of your products...

I need to clarify what I meant a bit.
There is a difference -- as another poster so clearly pointed out -- between
helping the customer make the right decision, and manipulating the customer's
emotions to get him to buy something. I consider the latter unethical. Which is
why I'm a poor salesman.

why ?did you have to resort to that manipulation to sell?
good salespeople don't.

George

[William Sommerwerck]

Post by William Sommerwerck
There is a difference -- as another poster so clearly pointed out -- between
helping the customer make the right decision, and manipulating the customer's
emotions to get him to buy something. I consider the latter unethical. Which
is why I'm a poor salesman.

Why? Did you have to resort to that manipulation to sell?
Good salespeople don't.

But they do. That's what makes them good.

Anyone who's seriously interested in making a living at sales cannot have
"helping the customer make the right choice" as their top priority.

[Dave Andrews]

Post by William Sommerwerck
There is a difference -- as another poster so clearly pointed out -- between
helping the customer make the right decision, and manipulating the customer's
emotions to get him to buy something. I consider the latter unethical. Which
is why I'm a poor salesman.

Why? Did you have to resort to that manipulation to sell?
Good salespeople don't.

<< But they do. That's what makes them good. >>

False.

<< Anyone who's seriously interested in making a living at sales cannot have
"helping the customer make the right choice" as their top priority. >>

False. The very best, brightest and largest producers do just that.

As an admittedly "poor salesman", what specifically are your qualifications for
denigrating good ones?

[William Sommerwerck]

Post by William Sommerwerck
Anyone who's seriously interested in making a living at sales cannot have
"helping the customer make the right choice" as their top priority.
False. The very best, brightest and largest producers do just that.
As an admittedly "poor salesman", what specifically are your qualifications
for denigrating good ones?

Because I've seen it.

The best salesmen are focused on making the sale -- and little else. You forget
that a sale is a social transaction, not just the exchange of money.

The consensus is that the salespeople who know the least about what they're
selling are the most-successful salesmen. What does this tell you?

[Dave Andrews]

"William Sommerwerck" ***@nwlink.com wrote:

<< The consensus is that the salespeople who know the least about what they're
selling are the most-successful salesmen. What does this tell you? >>

It tells me you went to public school.

[William Sommerwerck]

Post by Dave Andrews

Post by William Sommerwerck
The consensus is that the salespeople who know the least
about what they're selling are the most-successful salesmen.
What does this tell you?

It tells me you went to public school.

And what was it you learned in a private or parochial school (or under home
schooling) that indicates any different?

[Dave Andrews]

Post by Dave Andrews

Post by William Sommerwerck
The consensus is that the salespeople who know the least
about what they're selling are the most-successful salesmen.
What does this tell you?

It tells me you went to public school.

<< And what was it you learned in a private or parochial school (or under home
schooling) that indicates any different? >>

I learned to avoid using terms like "consensus" without a statistically
significant sample of the populace that would be best qualified to opine on a
given subject. For example, the Consumer Reports subscriber base would be a
poor cross section from which to take a scientifically meaningful sample of
how salespeople function since these people all live in paranoia over the free
enterprise system in the first place. I learned to keep my prejudices,
hunches and emotional inclinations at bay long enough to engage my mental
apparatus before I assess the dynamics of a situation. I learned to embrace
logic and reason as a more valuable pathway to identifying true cause and
effect relationships rather than to make blanket generalizations based on my
limited exposure to any given situation. And mostly, I learned that it is not
necessary to have an opinion on every subject , but that if I choose to develop
and express one, it ought to be reasonably defensible for fear of someone
coming along that would point out the fallacy in my thinking process.

And just to further entertain you, I learned most of this in public school, but
that was many many years before they "recentered" the SAT scores to disguise
ineptitude of those running the assylum.

[William Sommerwerck]

Post by Dave Andrews

Post by Dave Andrews

Post by William Sommerwerck
The consensus is that the salespeople who know the least
about what they're selling are the most-successful salesmen.
What does this tell you?

It tells me you went to public school.

<< And what was it you learned in a private or parochial school (or under home
schooling) that indicates any different? >>
I learned to avoid using terms like "consensus" without a statistically
significant sample of the populace that would be best qualified to
opine on a given subject.

The consensus is among people who've worked in retail sales, which I have.

Post by Dave Andrews
For example, the Consumer Reports subscriber base would be a
poor cross section from which to take a scientifically meaningful sample of
how salespeople function since these people all live in paranoia over the free
enterprise system in the first place. I learned to keep my prejudices,
hunches and emotional inclinations at bay long enough to engage my mental
apparatus before I assess the dynamics of a situation. I learned to embrace
logic and reason as a more valuable pathway to identifying true cause and
effect relationships rather than to make blanket generalizations based on my
limited exposure to any given situation.

Uh-huh. (You speak like someone who's read Logic for Dummies, but didn't quite
get it.)

Over the years I've found that the people who are the quickest to proclaim just
how scrupulously logical they are, are usually devoid of any ability to think
deeply and critically.

Post by Dave Andrews
And mostly, I learned that it is not
necessary to have an opinion on every subject , but that if I choose to develop
and express one, it ought to be reasonably defensible for fear of someone
coming along that would point out the fallacy in my thinking process.

In your book, a "fallacy" is any point of view you disagree with.

Post by Dave Andrews
And just to further entertain you, I learned most of this in public school,
but that was many many years before they "recentered" the SAT scores
to disguise ineptitude of those running the assylum.

Hate to spoil things for you, but in 1964/65 I scored 800+ on the math SAT and
roughly 750 on the verbal. (I don't remember the exact score.)

[so what]

For example, the Consumer Reports subscriber base would be a poor
cross section from which to take a scientifically meaningful sample
of how salespeople function since these people all live in paranoia
over the free enterprise system in the first place.
I learned to keep my prejudices, hunches and emotional inclinations
at bay long enough to engage my mental apparatus before I assess the
dynamics of a situation. I learned to embrace logic and reason as a
more valuable pathway to identifying true cause and effect
relationships rather than to make blanket generalizations based on my
limited exposure to any given situation.

Wanna run that by again?

[George]

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by William Sommerwerck
Anyone who's seriously interested in making a living at sales cannot have
"helping the customer make the right choice" as their top priority.
False. The very best, brightest and largest producers do just that.
As an admittedly "poor salesman", what specifically are your qualifications
for denigrating good ones?

Because I've seen it.
The best salesmen are focused on making the sale -- and little else. You forget
that a sale is a social transaction, not just the exchange of money.
The consensus is that the salespeople who know the least about what they're
selling are the most-successful salesmen. What does this tell you?

it tells me you belive the moon is made of cheese and the tooth fairy is
real
you believe in myths , what you believe about salespeople is simply not
true
George

[George]

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by William Sommerwerck
There is a difference -- as another poster so clearly pointed out -- between
helping the customer make the right decision, and manipulating the customer's
emotions to get him to buy something. I consider the latter unethical. Which
is why I'm a poor salesman.

Why? Did you have to resort to that manipulation to sell?
Good salespeople don't.

But they do. That's what makes them good.
Anyone who's seriously interested in making a living at sales cannot have
"helping the customer make the right choice" as their top priority.

you are just SO wrong about this on so many levels
you proly even think price is the most important negotiating tool sales
pros have
as a sale professional the only thing your concerned with is your
customers best intrests
George

[William Sommerwerck]

Post by George
you are just SO wrong about this on so many levels
you proly even think price is the most important negotiating
tool sales pros have
as a sale professional the only thing your concerned with
is your customers best intrests

What kind of "professionals" are you talking about?

[U-CDK_CHARLES\\Charles]

Post by George

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by William Sommerwerck
There is a difference -- as another poster so clearly pointed out -- between
helping the customer make the right decision, and manipulating the customer's
emotions to get him to buy something. I consider the latter unethical. Which
is why I'm a poor salesman.

Why? Did you have to resort to that manipulation to sell?
Good salespeople don't.

But they do. That's what makes them good.
Anyone who's seriously interested in making a living at sales cannot have
"helping the customer make the right choice" as their top priority.

you are just SO wrong about this on so many levels
you proly even think price is the most important negotiating tool sales
pros have
as a sale professional the only thing your concerned with is your
customers best intrests

Depends on what you're selling. If you're selling cheap used cars, it's
different than selling office supplies.

My local pusher . .er . . dealer, had a salesman I HATED to deal with.

Me: "What do you have in X"

Him: "Well, I've got some nice Ws and Yx"

Me: I'm looking for X

Him: "I've also some good As and Bs"

His inability to listen made him less than useless. Big surprise: He's
long gone now.

My previous Day Job had a rep in Korea who was notorious for selling
folks things that wouldn't work together. It cost us much more in
fixing his mistakes than we ever got from his sales.

OTOH, there's a salesman at Pusher's who'll happily answer my questions,
seems to REALLY know his stock. If you ask him about Brand X, he'll
offer a realistic assessment of the unit's capabilities and shortcomings
that pretty well matches the opinion of Brand X around here.

Guess who makes more money at sales--the guy who doesn't care or the guy
who does.

[William Sommerwerck]

Post by U-CDK_CHARLES\\Charles
OTOH, there's a salesman at Pusher's who'll happily answer my questions,
seems to REALLY know his stock. If you ask him about Brand X, he'll
offer a realistic assessment of the unit's capabilities and shortcomings
that pretty well matches the opinion of Brand X around here.
Guess who makes more money at sales--the guy who doesn't care
or the guy who does.

Obviously, the former. But you're missing the point.

The guy who tries to manipulate the customer into the sale DOES care -- about
lining his pockets, if nothing else.

I stand 129.5% by my statement -- the most-successful salesman is the one who
most adroitly manipulates the customer.

[Analogeezer]

Post by Bill Lorentzen

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by Bill Lorentzen
IN the early days of desktop computers, one of the first big chains

found

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by Bill Lorentzen
that the less the sales people knew about computers, the more they

sold. The

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by Bill Lorentzen
knowledgable guys gave the customer choices, and they got confused and

had

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by Bill Lorentzen
to leave, "to think about it." Then they went to another store where

the

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by Bill Lorentzen
salesguy said "Buy an IBM." They knew what IBM was, so they bought it.

This is infortunately true, and one of the reasons I don't like selling.
Salesmanship is too often about convincing the customer to buy something,

rather

Post by William Sommerwerck
than helping him/her make the right decision.

Disagree... unless you have a lousy product or product selection, there's a
pretty good chance that helping the customer make the right decision will
also involve a sale of one of your products... I mean, if you're selling
stereos, and the guy's there looking for a stereo, chances are you've got
one that may suit him. If you're selling computers, and the guy is there
telling you he's looking for a computer... you follow? Now, it's possible
that someone down the street is selling a better model, but if you don't
believe in your product you shouldn't be there selling it - you should get
a job down the street.

My point exactly, it takes no more time to pull a customer in by
modifying your stichk to suit them then it does to keep hitting them
with the same old spiel...if all you can do is say the same thing to
everybody, well then you ought to be a vending machine.

If you adapt your selling to the customer it takes no more time really
but gets better results.

Cars for example, car buyers fall into about six different
categories...you have the:

1. Price is everything

2. I want safety, I want the safest car I can buy

3. I want luxury and all the cool stuff

4. Performance man, I'm a gearhead, I want a cool car with triple
overhead cams, six wheel discs, supercharger and turbocharger (I fall
in this category)

5. I don't know what I want, I think I want an SUV but maybe a minivan
would be cool (car salesmen love these people)

6. Analyzers - these people don't cut to the chase, and it's not about
the car really they are trying to play the game with the salesguy and
make themselves feel like they got over.

A successful care salesman will deal with #6 by making them feel like
"they won"


Most car salesmen I have encountered don't adapt to this, I have had a
couple that quickly picked up on that I was in category #3, and then
they pimped that...guess what it worked because it made me feel more
like they knew what the hell they were talking about...they didn't
know much about cars but were smart enough to let me lead and just
agree "yeah dude, the six speed in that model is awesome".

But most of them want to tell me how many airbags there are, or that
their dealer service is top rated....they just have a script and
follow it.

Successful salespeople know a bit about psychology and how to adapt
the sales pitch and when you get into more expensive products, this
comes into play even more.

If you are buying a CD player at the Best Buy, you don't care, but I'd
think the kind of customer that buys a $400 glorified clock radio
deserves a bit more finesse in their sales pitch.

I know that if I had gone in there with an open mind (which I didn't),
I would have been very turned off at the salesguy...too forward, too
agressive, Bose is supposed to be selling to the Better Homes and
Garden crowd and those people want to feel respected, not sold to.

Analogeezer

[Jason W]

Post by Analogeezer
Even if I was a fan of the stuff I would have been horrified at the
pressure tactics they lay on at that place...the whole thing just
really pissed me off.

Their sales model is not designed nor intended for audio savvy like
you. It's actually logical that you were turned off by that place.
Bose is a successful and profitable company so their agressive
approach seems to be working for them.

[Analogeezer]

Post by Jason W

Post by Analogeezer
Even if I was a fan of the stuff I would have been horrified at the
pressure tactics they lay on at that place...the whole thing just
really pissed me off.

Their sales model is not designed nor intended for audio savvy like
you. It's actually logical that you were turned off by that place.
Bose is a successful and profitable company so their agressive
approach seems to be working for them.

Well I'd say they have succeeded through massive advertising and all
that direct marketing they do.

When's the last time you saw a stereo gear ad in a magazineon or
TV...that stuff is more or less commodity stuff now.

Bose's problem will be once they saturate the market of yuppie twerps
that actually think they are buying something special they will be
unable to sustain the advertising and the storefront that's working so
well for them now.

Mark my words, the same thing will happen to Harley Davidson, they are
selling to a similiar crowd these days....in fact across the shopping
place from the Bose store was a Harley dealer...well two. One sold
bikes, the other one sold clothes.

The clothes store was as large as the bike store.

Analogeezer

p.s. My old boss bought a Audi A4 a few years back, total Piece of
crap it broke all the time.

he paid extra for the package with the "Bose Stereo". He traded the
car in (one thing it did was it kept puking out oil) and bought a
Honda Accord with the stock stereo.

he told me he likes the Honda stereo better than the one in the Audi

[George]

Post by Analogeezer
Mark my words, the same thing will happen to Harley Davidson, they are
selling to a similiar crowd these days....in fact across the shopping
place from the Bose store was a Harley dealer...well two. One sold
bikes, the other one sold clothes.
The clothes store was as large as the bike store.
Analogeezer

our papers are filled with used Harleys from rubs that thought they
could be bikes by buying something that looked like a "real" bike
resale values are plummeting as Harley is pumping more and more bikes
into the hands of wanna-bes
you can get a really clean late model superglide for under 7000.00 now
when they get to about 3000 I might even consider one
I am guessing about 2 more years
George

[steve]

Post by Analogeezer
Bose's problem will be once they saturate the market of yuppie twerps
that actually think they are buying something special they will be
unable to sustain the advertising and the storefront that's working so
well for them now.
Mark my words, the same thing will happen to Harley Davidson, they are
selling to a similiar crowd these days....in fact across the shopping
place from the Bose store was a Harley dealer...well two. One sold
bikes, the other one sold clothes.
The clothes store was as large as the bike store.
Analogeezer

Sounds like you were at our #1 tourist spot - Concord Mills Outlet Mall.
You should have gone a mile down Speedway Blvd to the Nascar museum,
much more interesting than a shopping mall. But there's a gift shop
there too.

[Analogeezer]

Post by steve

Post by Analogeezer
Bose's problem will be once they saturate the market of yuppie twerps
that actually think they are buying something special they will be
unable to sustain the advertising and the storefront that's working so
well for them now.
Mark my words, the same thing will happen to Harley Davidson, they are
selling to a similiar crowd these days....in fact across the shopping
place from the Bose store was a Harley dealer...well two. One sold
bikes, the other one sold clothes.
The clothes store was as large as the bike store.
Analogeezer

Sounds like you were at our #1 tourist spot - Concord Mills Outlet Mall.
You should have gone a mile down Speedway Blvd to the Nascar museum,
much more interesting than a shopping mall. But there's a gift shop
there too.

That might have been it, the point was to buy some clothes for the
kid..we found some good deals, nothing special.

The real point was a chance to visit my mom and go out and do
something.

I'm more into Formula 1, Moto GP and World Superbike when it comes to
racing though....Nascar does not do a thing for me....you don't see
any 50 year old guys in F1, Moto GP, or World Superbike, much less 50+
year old guys winning races.

Imagine if we had 50 year old quarterbacks in the NFL....

Analogeezer

[agent86]

Post by Analogeezer
Bose's problem will be once they saturate the market of yuppie twerps
that actually think they are buying something special they will be
unable to sustain the advertising and the storefront that's working so
well for them now.

Or maybe not. The trouble is that yuppie twerps breed faster than rabbits.
Bose has been using the same (or at least VERY similar, maybe without the
big outlet store) kind of marketing strategy since the seventies, at least.

[Jason W]

Post by Analogeezer

Post by Jason W

Post by Analogeezer
Even if I was a fan of the stuff I would have been horrified at the
pressure tactics they lay on at that place...the whole thing just
really pissed me off.

Their sales model is not designed nor intended for audio savvy like
you. It's actually logical that you were turned off by that place.
Bose is a successful and profitable company so their agressive
approach seems to be working for them.

Well I'd say they have succeeded through massive advertising and all
that direct marketing they do.
When's the last time you saw a stereo gear ad in a magazineon or
TV...that stuff is more or less commodity stuff now.

Bose sells mediocre stuff to the consumer mass market. Their stuff is
no better or worse than any other mass market audio equipment
including Denon, Sony, Yamaha, Polk, Infinity, etc. There have been
endless Bose bashing threads but the majority of complainers are
comparing it to stuff that costs more.

Post by Analogeezer
Bose's problem will be once they saturate the market of yuppie twerps
that actually think they are buying something special they will be
unable to sustain the advertising and the storefront that's working so
well for them now.
Mark my words, the same thing will happen to Harley Davidson, they are
selling to a similiar crowd these days....in fact across the shopping
place from the Bose store was a Harley dealer...well two. One sold
bikes, the other one sold clothes.

This is the typical product development timeline that virtually all
companies evolve into. The founder of a new company starts out with
idealistic goals of serving only the boutique market, the high-end
customer, and the discerning connoisseur. But then reality sets in
and sustaining profits becomes extremely important and new product
designs get dumbed down and cheapened to be sold to more of the mass
market. The prestige becomes diluted.

Although it's nothing to complain about----that's what new startup
companies are for! The startup companies have those "caring" CEOs and
are revered by customers before they become the big evil empire. A
few years later, a new small company comes in to compete and the
marketing pattern then repeats itself.

[William Sommerwerck]

Bose sells mediocre stuff to the consumer mass market. Their stuff
is no better or worse than any other mass market audio equipment
including Denon, Sony, Yamaha, Polk, Infinity, etc.

I beg to differ. I've owned Denon, Sony, and Infinity products, and they have
been head and shoulders about Böse bilge. All these companies have produced
classic audiophile products of legitimately high quality, something you can't
say about Böse.

[Laurence Payne]

Post by Analogeezer
The guy offered to take me in the back as they were starting a demo
soon, and I finally said "well I'm sure it sounds nice but the way you
have this store setup in no way resembles anybody's actual living room
so I don't know how your demo would translate to an actual space where
this stuff would get used".

Pity you didn't stay for the demo. It sounds as if you walked in to
the shop with preconceptions about Bose gear, walked out with the
same, having scored a few points off the sales droid. Wouldn't it
have been interesting to actually HEAR the latest offerings from Bose?

(I agree with you about the domestic Bose product I've heard. But
I've not stopped listening:-)

CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect

[Analogeezer]

Post by Laurence Payne

Post by Analogeezer
The guy offered to take me in the back as they were starting a demo
soon, and I finally said "well I'm sure it sounds nice but the way you
have this store setup in no way resembles anybody's actual living room
so I don't know how your demo would translate to an actual space where
this stuff would get used".

Pity you didn't stay for the demo. It sounds as if you walked in to
the shop with preconceptions about Bose gear, walked out with the
same, having scored a few points off the sales droid. Wouldn't it
have been interesting to actually HEAR the latest offerings from Bose?
(I agree with you about the domestic Bose product I've heard. But
I've not stopped listening:-)
CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect

Well that is true, but reality is the way their rooms are setup (lots
of reflective surfaces, high ceilings, hardly any absorbent material)
in no way resembles my house or just about anybody elses.

I fail to see how their demo would translate to my living space, given
the acoustics are 1000% different.

I got the distinct impression that had I actually "heard" the demo,
then the hard core sale would really start....kind of like after they
let you test drive a car.

The entire experience was very reminiscent of car selling to tell you
the truth.

Analogeezer