Discussion:
more (stupid) questions from classical violinist
(too old to reply)
EugeneFodorFan
2005-02-18 22:27:21 UTC
Permalink
OK. I've posted once before and want to thank everyone for their help.
I have 2 DPA 4052's (compact 4006's), an MBOX and protools, and a Mac
laptop, of course--all bought to record the complete unaccompanied Bach
Sonatas and Partitas and the 24 Paganini caprices (also unaccompanied).


I was told that the preamp's in the MBOX are not good so they won't
bring out the best in the mics. What can I do about that? Is there
something that can connect to the MBOX to improve performance, or do I
need an upgrade? Is the Digi 002 better than the MBOX? Does it have
better preamps? Any suggestions appreciated. By the way, I'm in
Omaha, Nebraska. Thanks.

One more question. How does a preamp affect the sound of a mic? Yes,
I'm a complete beginner. I feel like my mother with a new remote
control, tv and vcr...completely clueless.
Scott Dorsey
2005-02-18 22:38:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by EugeneFodorFan
I was told that the preamp's in the MBOX are not good so they won't
bring out the best in the mics. What can I do about that? Is there
something that can connect to the MBOX to improve performance, or do I
need an upgrade? Is the Digi 002 better than the MBOX? Does it have
better preamps? Any suggestions appreciated. By the way, I'm in
Omaha, Nebraska. Thanks.
Go right now into a decent room, set up the mikes, and record yourself.
Play it back and get a listen.

The preamps in the Mbox aren't wonderful, and the converters aren't
wonderful either, but maybe they'll be better than your monitoring.
You won't know until you put it up on the monitors and listen.
Post by EugeneFodorFan
One more question. How does a preamp affect the sound of a mic? Yes,
I'm a complete beginner. I feel like my mother with a new remote
control, tv and vcr...completely clueless.
Do some listening. A perfect preamp doesn't affect the sound of the
mike at all.... but in the real world, all electronics add some kind of
coloration. Might be coloration you like, it might not be. Roll some
tape and see! Either way, you will find you get a lot more sonic
difference from moving the mikes six inches than you'll get from changing
preamps...
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Mike Rivers
2005-02-19 01:52:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by EugeneFodorFan
I was told that the preamp's in the MBOX are not good so they won't
bring out the best in the mics. What can I do about that?
You can use a different preamp. But first, be sure that the mic/preamp
interface is really your problem. It's an important thing for sure,
but you won't get the sound of a $2500 mic out of a $200 mic just by
changing preamps.
Post by EugeneFodorFan
One more question. How does a preamp affect the sound of a mic?
Technically, by changing the loading on the microphone. This makes
more of a difference with mics that have transformers at their output,
and less of a difference with transformerless mics. Then there's the
sound of the preamp electronics itself - some add distortion
(intentional or not - when intentional, it's called "color") and some
have very low internal distortion.

Then there's the matter of the analog-to-digital converter which is an
integral part of the M-box. This doesn't directly affect the sound of
the microphone, but it's part of the sound of the M-Box.

Ideally, you'd find the perfect mic for your instrument, run it
thorugh the preamp that sounds best with that mic and your instrument,
and use a really high grade A/D converter, connecting that to the
digital input of the M-Box. But for starters, work on your mics, your
room, placement, and see what the M-Box can and can't do.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers (***@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Kurt Albershardt
2005-02-19 02:19:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by EugeneFodorFan
I have 2 DPA 4052's (compact 4006's), an MBOX and protools, and a Mac
laptop, of course--all bought to record the complete unaccompanied Bach
Sonatas and Partitas and the 24 Paganini caprices (also unaccompanied).
I was told that the preamp's in the MBOX are not good so they won't
bring out the best in the mics. What can I do about that?
Are you willing to use software other than ProTools?
Post by EugeneFodorFan
Is the Digi 002 better than the MBOX? Does it have better preamps?
I have been told that the 002 preamps are somewhat better than those in the MBox. Your DPAs are good enough to justify an even better preamp if your ears, your monitoring, and your budget will support that.

How much recording are you doing? How good is the room you are recording in? You might be better served by renting a better room or buying/renting better monitors. How far down this rabbit hole do you want to go?
Edward Bridge
2005-02-19 02:24:04 UTC
Permalink
"EugeneFodorFan" <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:***@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

I feel like my mother with a new remote
Post by EugeneFodorFan
control, tv and vcr...completely clueless.
I know you know this , but don't forget to "BACK UP " each step of your
recording ,you have your hands full recording a lot of "notes" in the works
unaccompanied Bach Sonatas and Partitas and the 24 Paganini caprices. . .
wow.

ed
k***@rogers.com
2005-02-19 05:10:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by EugeneFodorFan
One more question. How does a preamp affect the sound of a mic?
Yes,
Post by EugeneFodorFan
I'm a complete beginner. I feel like my mother with a new remote
control, tv and vcr...completely clueless.
Hi Eugene
I would go to a local pro-audio dealer and get 3-4 pre-amp/A-D
converters to
try out.
I recorded Yo Yo Ma for the Bach DVD series and used 3 B&K 4000 series.
One for close 4-6ft, and 2 in omni 12-15ft back. I used the apogee
series and
it worked out great. I found the sound to be very smooth especially in
the 12-15khz
range. I had to add a little at 100hz to fill out the bottom a little.
The room mics
changed positions acording to tempo.
kevin
Edward Bridge
2005-02-19 15:20:46 UTC
Permalink
<***@rogers.com> wrote in message news:***@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
a little at 100hz to fill out the bottom a little
Post by k***@rogers.com
The room mics
changed positions acording to tempo.
You mean you would changed the positions, going from the Prelude to
Allemande ? Is it becasue of Tempo or Dynamics , and would that change the
"sound" in middle of a suite, or is it no one could notice .

I've been learning about recording (on my own) and while recording in our
church and I made sure that I did'nt change the mic placing for the whole
suite.



TIA
Ed Bridge
Brooklyn N.Y.
http://www.bridgeclassicalguitars.com/
hank alrich
2005-02-19 16:48:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Edward Bridge
You mean you would changed the positions, going from the Prelude to
Allemande ? Is it becasue of Tempo or Dynamics , and would that change the
"sound" in middle of a suite, or is it no one could notice .
I'll run out on a limb here and suggest me's adjusting the mic positions
to put the major room reflections into some chosen time alignment with
the tempo of the material, much like people tweak digital reverbs for
the same reason.
Post by Edward Bridge
I've been learning about recording (on my own) and while recording in our
church and I made sure that I did'nt change the mic placing for the whole
suite.
All this could easily depend on the room's reverberation
characteristics.

--
ha
Edward Bridge
2005-02-19 21:50:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by hank alrich
I'll run out on a limb here and suggest me's adjusting the mic positions
to put the major room reflections into some chosen time alignment with
the tempo of the material, much like people tweak digital reverbs for
the same reason.
Hey Hank

Um ,sounds like a skill for those with "good ears" I still learning.
Thank you
--
Peace,
Ed Bridge
Brooklyn N.Y.
http://www.bridgeclassicalguitars.com/
k***@rogers.com
2005-02-20 00:54:47 UTC
Permalink
Hi Ed
With Gould recordings I would use natched pairs at different distances.
A position would be 8-10 ft to get the articulation of the piece.
B positon would be 15-20 ft to add in ambience of 1-1.5 sec
C position would be 25-30ft for ambience of 2-3 sec

In the mix the level of position A would not change.
The ambience used was a balance of C & D positions
depending on the tempo.
Because the level of A position never changed, The intial part
of the sound envelope remained consistent, so the listener never
percieved a big difference. IF the tempo moved from allegro to
adagio the ambience would change to add more harmonic duration to the
overall mix. This setup proved crucial in preventing harmonic disonance
in the overall performance
EugeneFodorFan
2005-02-20 01:27:25 UTC
Permalink
With Gould recordings I would use natched pairs at different distances.

You recorded Glenn Gould? Oh my God, that is incredible. Tell me
stories, lots of stories. Gould is, well, incredible to say the least.
Edward Bridge
2005-02-20 03:13:55 UTC
Permalink
--
Peace,
Ed Bridge
Brooklyn N.Y.
http://www.bridgeclassicalguitars.com/
Post by k***@rogers.com
Hi Ed
With Gould recordings I would use natched pairs at different distances.
A position would be 8-10 ft to get the articulation of the piece.
B positon would be 15-20 ft to add in ambience of 1-1.5 sec
C position would be 25-30ft for ambience of 2-3 sec
In the mix the level of position A would not change.
The ambience used was a balance of C & D positions
depending on the tempo.
Because the level of A position never changed, The intial part
of the sound envelope remained consistent, so the listener never
percieved a big difference. IF the tempo moved from allegro to
adagio the ambience would change to add more harmonic duration to the
overall mix. This setup proved crucial in preventing harmonic disonance
in the overall performance
Edward Bridge
2005-02-20 03:18:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by k***@rogers.com
With Gould recordings
???? sorry . . . okay. . kiddo. .killfile.
Paul Stamler
2005-02-20 08:21:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by k***@rogers.com
In the mix the level of position A would not change.
The ambience used was a balance of C & D positions
depending on the tempo.
Because the level of A position never changed, The intial part
of the sound envelope remained consistent, so the listener never
percieved a big difference. IF the tempo moved from allegro to
adagio the ambience would change to add more harmonic duration to the
overall mix. This setup proved crucial in preventing harmonic disonance
in the overall performance
What is harmonic duration?

Peace,
Paul
k***@rogers.com
2005-02-20 15:10:40 UTC
Permalink
Harmonic Duration
Is the duration time of the musical elements that are played.
Paul Stamler
2005-02-20 18:14:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by k***@rogers.com
Harmonic Duration
Is the duration time of the musical elements that are played.
Like, how long a note lasts?

Peace,
Paul
k***@rogers.com
2005-02-20 22:52:07 UTC
Permalink
Yes, the actual sustain and RT-60
kevin
dale
2005-02-20 23:54:20 UTC
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"EugeneFodorFan"

sir

***@rogers.com is arguing an aesthetical production
technique.
it bears no consequence to your own project of recording your self in
the art gallery.

have you picked up your microphones.
what type of stereo configuration have you found to sound best in the
gallery?

dale
EugeneFodorFan
2005-02-21 02:42:09 UTC
Permalink
have you picked up your microphones

Yes, I have. I just received my 4052's a couple of days ago.They
sound terrific! I also have one 4011 that I've had for about a year.
That's all I started with was 1 4011 just to get used to Protools and
to practice recording and playing. Now I'm ready to begin my 20 year
project. :)

what type of stereo configuration have you found to sound best in the
gallery?

I don't really know. I'm reading about the various configurations from
dpamicrophones.com, but don't really know much yet. But like you said,
I just need to record, which I've done, but I'm not wonderfully
enthused by the sound as of yet, though the mics sound pretty decent.
It just either sounds too close or too far. Funny, even the maturity
of sound seems to change when I change the position of the mics.

***@rogers.com is arguing an aesthetical production
technique.

I just want to hear one story from Kevin about Glenn Gould. I'm a huge
Gould fanatic.
dale
2005-02-21 12:13:43 UTC
Permalink
Now I'm ready to begin my 20 year project. :)
what type of stereo configuration have you found to sound best in the
gallery?
I don't really know. I'm reading about the various configurations from
dpamicrophones.com, but don't really know much yet. But like you said,
I just need to record, which I've done, but I'm not wonderfully
enthused by the sound as of yet, though the mics sound pretty decent.
It just either sounds too close or too far. Funny, even the maturity
of sound seems to change when I change the position of the mics.
so how are you positioning the mics?
ORTF.....NOS....
I find the jecklin disc is a good technique

here is a link for a pdf on building your own disc.
< http://www.klankschap.nl/ndotb.pdf >

when you say the maturity seems to change, where do you like the sound
better ... close....further away?
any audio files available yet for feedback?

dale
EugeneFodorFan
2005-02-21 18:53:24 UTC
Permalink
so how are you positioning the mics?
ORTF.....NOS....

I'll let you know when I can remember what is what...

I find the jecklin disc is a good technique

what is that?

when you say the maturity seems to change, where do you like the
sound
better ... close....further away?
any audio files available yet for feedback?

I like the power and detail of a close sound, but the round smoothness
of a sound that's further away. Somehow I need to blend the two
appropriately.

As far as audio files for feedback...not for a couple of weeks yet. I
want to make sure what I send is at least note perfect. BTW, I can't
figure out how to convert a wav file to an mp3. I can convert an aiff
file to an Mp4, but the wav file breaks the audio into two channels.
Can you help? Thanks again.
dale
2005-02-21 19:48:48 UTC
Permalink
ortf= organization radio televison france or something in french
that means just that.
mics are 16.5 cm apart at tips with 110 degree aiming,
this has a great soundstage with left / right and front / back well
defined
nos is the dutch equivalent
90 degree aiming 30 cm seperation

jecklin disc is swiss device using a disc in between mics.

bruce bartlett has a couple of excellent text out that would further
explain these and other techniques. Modern Recording Techniques and
Stereo Microphone Techniques.

bob katz book on audio mastering does a good job of explaining mic
placement too.


the close mic position is one favored by pop music production, and yes
it does have an in your face quality.
the further away you get the more the sound of the instrument has a
chance to blend. to far out and your room starts to become more
apparent.

the art of two mic recording is in the placement of the mic in
relationship to the performer and where they are located in the space
being used for recording. then how you have need to work on aiming the
mics to fine tune thier sound. even omni mics have to be aimed to
achieve the desire sound.

so not only do you need to practicew the music
now you need to work out how you setup in the room.
how your mics are positioned and your performance spot marked.

before I can help with file conversion, what computer system are you
using with your pro tools setup? I haven't used pro tools in a few
years myself so I would deferr to someone with more experience with
this daw.

dale

ps not meaning any disrespect to you or ed in my response to kevin.
I too am always looking to improve my knowledge and I am finding his
name dropping and pontification to be trite.
EugeneFodorFan
2005-02-21 20:50:31 UTC
Permalink
ps not meaning any disrespect to you or ed in my response to kevin.
I too am always looking to improve my knowledge and I am finding his
name dropping and pontification to be trite.

None taken. Thank you so much for the information. And thanks to
everyone as well. This a great forum.

before I can help with file conversion, what computer system are you
using with your pro tools setup? I haven't used pro tools in a few
years myself so I would deferr to someone with more experience with
this daw.

I use a Mac laptop, 1.33 GHz Power PC G4.

the art of two mic recording is in the placement of the mic in
relationship to the performer and where they are located in the space
being used for recording. then how you have need to work on aiming
the
mics to fine tune thier sound. even omni mics have to be aimed to
achieve the desire sound.

My 4011 is not omni. Should I use all 3 mics? Maybe the 4011 up close
and the omni's further back?
k***@rogers.com
2005-02-21 21:17:33 UTC
Permalink
My 4011 is not omni. Should I use all 3 mics? Maybe the 4011 up
close
and the omni's further back?

Sounds good to me

3-6 ft on the close mic, depending how much articulation you need.
The omni's further back. Try to place the omni's equal distance from
the back and
side walls to minimze loud early reflections. This will give you more
of the
smooth room sound with the longest pre-delay possible. In the end you
can mix the
balance to see how intimate you want the sound to be.
I recently used this approach for 5.1 recording and mixing for
films and a single with Bocelli.
kevin
EugeneFodorFan
2005-02-21 21:31:53 UTC
Permalink
Awesome. Will try and let you know...
dale
2005-02-22 00:02:57 UTC
Permalink
eugene
Post by EugeneFodorFan
Should I use all 3 mics? Maybe the 4011 up close
and the omni's further back
do you have a mixing board?
the m box has just two mic pre's and will not do 3 mics.
and what mic positions have you tried?
where are you pointing the mics, at your music stand? your instrument?

doesn't the dpa site talk about how moving the mic so that when you are
aiming it you can control the frequency response by coming up off the
instument?
are you micing from above?
do not get too high as you catch ceiling reflections.1/3 distance of
ceiling to floor heigth
what mic stand and stereo mic bar are you using?
having the omni's spaced too far apart will give a large hole in the
soundstage.
using the 3rd mic as a spot mic can provide additional sound variables
and additional engineering difficulties.
keep it as simple as possible. do not try to over engineer this until
you have the basic's down to a point that you comfortable with what you
are doing.
then you can move on.

itunes will burn a mp3 cd.

dale
EugeneFodorFan
2005-02-22 05:04:48 UTC
Permalink
do you have a mixing board?

no.

and what mic positions have you tried?
where are you pointing the mics, at your music stand? your
instrument?

I'll tell you when I figure that out. I'm not using a music stand.
I've tried both pointing at the instrument, straight up, etc. Still
working...

do not get too high as you catch ceiling reflections.1/3 distance of
ceiling to floor heigth

Duly noted...

what mic stand and stereo mic bar are you using?

I don't have a stereo bar. Do I really need one? I guess that's more
gear for me...

using the 3rd mic as a spot mic can provide additional sound variables
and additional engineering difficulties.

Well, I don't have a mixing board, so I guess I don't have to worry
about that for awhile.

tunes will burn a mp3 cd.

How do I put 2 channels into Itunes, to blend into one channel?
dale
2005-02-22 11:12:32 UTC
Permalink
I am using a manfrotto lighting boom (it gets my mics 14+ feet up and
has a sand bag for a counter weight. the stereo bar is the one that
came with my qtc1mp mics from earthworks.

here is a link to an on line sye for tapers
they do alot of on location recording
the supply of mic stands and accessories (ie stereo bar)
dave there can help you with any questions

< http://www.micsupply.com/index.html >

have you read the protools manual? it should explain how to link the
files as a stereo pair and then exporting them
there a a few texts for this also and pro tools has a faq on their web
presense.
and as I have chosen not to work with pro tools
I will defer to some one else who can better explain this basic task.

dale
EugeneFodorFan
2005-02-22 11:58:44 UTC
Permalink
have you read the protools manual?

Yes, I have. I'll figure it out.

the stereo bar is the one that
came with my qtc1mp mics from earthworks.

I looked for a stereo boom bar, but couldn't find it. Is it in "stand
accessories?"

Thanks.
dale
2005-02-22 13:14:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by EugeneFodorFan
I looked for a stereo boom bar, but couldn't find it. Is it in "stand
accessories?"
yes

dale
dale
2005-02-22 11:16:47 UTC
Permalink
kevin
Post by k***@rogers.com
I recently used this approach for 5.1 recording and mixing for
films and a single with Bocelli.
can you tell me how he is to do this 3 mic or your 4 or 6 mic
solution with an m box which has just 2 inputs with mic pre's. I find
your posting here to be bullshit.

a stereo pair will work. which one do you suggest.

dale
EugeneFodorFan
2005-02-22 14:55:35 UTC
Permalink
Dale, thanks for your input. You're correct, unless I get something
other than the MBOX, 2 mics will suffice.

However, for the record and with the utmost respect for you and your
help, Kevin has emailed me multiple documents pertaing to the art of
recording, mic placement, production, etc He has given me hours and
hours worth of reading material. His input has been invaluable to me,
as has yours. Furthermore, I greatly appreciate and admire the fact
that he has worked with such esteemed artists, especially Gould.

I owe everyone here a beer (or a bottle of wine, or a steak, since I'm
from Omaha, the steak capital of the world).
dale
2005-02-22 15:33:46 UTC
Permalink
eugenefodorfan

you are welcome,
it is good to hear that kevin has given something other then the
misinformation he posted here.
please check out the books I have suggested, they are quite good and
will explain much of the recording process you seem to be in need of. I
hope that the documents kevin sent are of the same caliber as the text
I suggest. if they are like his (%&$#%) postings here at RAP.......
buyer beware of self agendizing crap.

dale
Kurt Albershardt
2005-02-22 21:10:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by EugeneFodorFan
I owe everyone here a beer (or a bottle of wine, or a steak, since I'm
from Omaha, the steak capital of the world).
Is that Persian restaurant still downtown? Mmmmmmm....
EugeneFodorFan
2005-02-22 22:08:34 UTC
Permalink
Ahmad's Persian Cuisine. Absolutely. It's still there.
k***@rogers.com
2005-02-22 22:28:54 UTC
Permalink
I'll be down for dinner in the summer
kevin
EugeneFodorFan
2005-02-22 23:40:12 UTC
Permalink
If only that were true. Then perhaps I could talk you into helping me
record. :)
Edward Bridge
2005-02-21 21:15:44 UTC
Permalink
/
Post by dale
ps not meaning any disrespect to you or ed in my response to kevin.
I too am always looking to improve my knowledge and I am finding his
name dropping and pontification to be trite.
There's was a recording by a man (Michael Newman) playing Bach's Chaconne,
it 's great, but by a person who was involved and was "name dropping" I
was able to say " holy shit , how did they do that ?" and I learned and I
_also _ forget what's it called .. he he . .but the recording is something
like "cutting straight to the lp" anyway

If Kevin said " I sleep with Madonna " maybe that's going a little over
board with the name dropping .

Your a good person , I learn somthing reading this thread and that's always
what's good about Rec.pro

"pontification" as you can tell my grammer is pretty bad so thank you bro.
for the new word
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=pontification&x=21&
y=17 . . . which I'm guilty of , in this house !
Peace to you and "we cool " . .as we say in Brooklyn
Ed Bridge
Brooklyn N.Y.
http://www.bridgeclassicalguitars.com
Edward Bridge
2005-02-21 01:19:14 UTC
Permalink
Dear Kevin

Is this you http://www.fanshawec.on.ca/newsletter/2004/16/10.asp ?

If so, I'm _sorry _ for thinking you were pulling my leg about Gould and
YO YO .

--
Peace,
Ed Bridge
Brooklyn N.Y.
k***@rogers.com
2005-02-21 03:07:50 UTC
Permalink
Yes that is me.
As Dale stated above, the technique I use is very unconventional, yet
it works well for me.
I would agree to just get out there and experiment.
If you want to hear an example of mine, try to locate Gould's
conducting debut
of Wagner's "Siefried Idyll"
Kevin
Edward Bridge
2005-02-21 03:36:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by k***@rogers.com
Yes that is me.
As Dale stated above, the technique I use is very unconventional, yet
it works well for me.
I would agree to just get out there and experiment.
If you want to hear an example of mine, try to locate Gould's
conducting debut
of Wagner's "Siefried Idyll"
Dear Kevin

Thank you and again I'm very sorry being a ass and thinking you were very
smart about recording but pulling my leg about working with Yo YO and
G.Gould which is two HUGE names as you know.
I'm a just grade 1 student of recording at 44 years old , I don't know
what's conventional and what's not so I'm all ears.

I'll take a look for Gould conducting Wagner 's "Siefreid Idyll" at the
libuary, thank you.

Peace,
Ed Bridge
Brooklyn N.Y.
http://www.bridgeclassicalguitars.com/
Chel van Gennip
2005-02-20 15:23:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by k***@rogers.com
With Gould recordings I would use natched pairs at different distances.
A position would be 8-10 ft to get the articulation of the piece. B
positon would be 15-20 ft to add in ambience of 1-1.5 sec C position
would be 25-30ft for ambience of 2-3 sec
In the mix the level of position A would not change. The ambience used
was a balance of C & D positions depending on the tempo.
Don't you get some nasty interference this way? Adding signals from the
same source with different delays has serious disadvantages.
--
Chel van Gennip
Visit Serg van Gennip's site http://www.serg.vangennip.com
k***@rogers.com
2005-02-20 22:51:12 UTC
Permalink
Don't you get some nasty interference this way? Adding signals from the

same source with different delays has serious disadvantages.

No you don't get discrete delays or any phase problems.
The idea of the A position is to capture the intensity of the
dynamics and the articulation of the notes that are being played.
The B & C positions add in the resonance/ reverb characteristics
to the overall sound. The C position will add in a longer resonance
than position D. This gives you greater control in making sure that
a harmonic mess does not occur.
kevin
--
Scott Dorsey
2005-02-22 13:52:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by k***@rogers.com
a little at 100hz to fill out the bottom a little
Post by k***@rogers.com
The room mics
changed positions acording to tempo.
You mean you would changed the positions, going from the Prelude to
Allemande ? Is it becasue of Tempo or Dynamics , and would that change the
"sound" in middle of a suite, or is it no one could notice .
A lot of folks do this, and it drives me up the wall. I understand the
general philosophy as being more or less like what the rock people to do
to set the reverb time to match the tempo, but I just get this feeling
of moving around between movements that disturbs me.

With some DG releases you can even hear the room changing within a
movement as they bring outriggers up and down, and that is just flat
out offensive.
Post by k***@rogers.com
I've been learning about recording (on my own) and while recording in our
church and I made sure that I did'nt change the mic placing for the whole
suite.
Try it and see. Either you'll like it or not, and clearly a lot of people
do like it because it sells.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
anahata
2005-02-22 20:04:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Dorsey
Post by Edward Bridge
You mean you would changed the positions, going from the Prelude to
Allemande
A lot of folks do this, and it drives me up the wall.
Not surprised. With music like the Bach cello suites, one reason for
choosing a great acoustic and then recording just what happens is that
the performer himself probably has better ears than the recording
engineer and will make all the necessary adjustments to his playing
style to suit the acoustic. There's a lot that can be done by choice of
tempo, how detached or legato to make the spaces between the notes, and
accents. To try to override this technically would be an insult to an
artists of Yo Yo Ma's calibre.

Trust me, I'm a cellist!
(orders of magnitude beneath the aforementioned, of course)
--
Anahata
***@treewind.co.uk -+- http://www.treewind.co.uk
Home: 01638 720444 Mob: 07976 263827
k***@rogers.com
2005-02-22 21:02:06 UTC
Permalink
To try to override this technically would be an insult to an
artists of Yo Yo Ma's calibre.

Not necessarily true!

Where the musician(s) prefers to perform in the acoustic environment is
not always the optimum recording location. Recording the Vienna
Philharmonic requires the engineer to change the pick-up
location as to avoid harmonic enmeshment with fast tempos (10 ft Decca
tree, 30 feet omnis). Where as the Berlin Philharmonic prefers slight
harmonic intonation due to the long reverberant characteristics of
their recording environment.( 15 ft Decca tree, 45 feet omnis) approx!
Placing mics at the same spot as the performer does not work even
though the performer enjoys playing in that location. Some articulation
is required. Most performers Like Yo Yo Ma and Gould as well as other
performers like Oscar Peterson, Yehudi Menuhin, Andrea Bocelli, Moscow
Symphony....
rely heavily on the technicians input in capturing the optimum sound
for the performers interpretation.
Most performers learn to adapt their skills to tempo and dynamic
indications provided by the composer. Asking them to change their
learned interpretation due to the acoustics of the environment is
extremely difficult, of which many would rebel at the idea of it. It is
up to the engineer to capture the performance that is satisfying to the
performer and their chosen listening audience. And at times this
process requires a lot of creativity from engineers who have gathered a
lot of knowledge from a myriad of recording experience in this area of
music. Any opinions from any who have limited or no experience in this
type of recording are futile!

"Ignorance"
Is contempt prior to investigation
Herbert Spencer
Chel van Gennip
2005-02-22 21:30:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by k***@rogers.com
Most performers learn to adapt their skills to tempo and dynamic
indications provided by the composer. Asking them to change their
learned interpretation due to the acoustics of the environment is
extremely difficult, of which many would rebel at the idea of it.
I do not agree with this. A performers should adapt to the acoustics of
the environment. A good performer does. Especially solo artists performing
in reverbant big concert halls should do some extra effort to make a piece
sound as intended by the composer in these environments.
Big concert halls do get worse for solo performers if they are used as a
recording location without public.
--
Chel van Gennip
Visit Serg van Gennip's site http://www.serg.vangennip.com
k***@rogers.com
2005-02-22 22:27:54 UTC
Permalink
performers should adapt to the acoustics of the environment.

Very difficult to do if you are a touring artist or with a touring
orchestra.
With piano, a performer's personality is barnded to their
interpretation.
They do not have a lot of flexibility with the use of a sustain pedal
only.
As Gould once stated 'I believe that a performer must execute his truth
as the middle-man between the composer and the listener, This is first
and foremost. I Stay true to this in every performance; how it is
further defined by the acoustica environment is like rolling dice.
Sometimes it comes up sevens and sometimes snake-eyes."
A singer like Bocelli who performs in halls that range from
1,000-15,000 people.I know he would laugh at people who wanted him to
adjust the duration of notes as according to the listening environment.
He does and will always sing it one way.
Also the performer could only adjust to the acoustics if they were
listening in the optimum listening position.
That would be kind of difficult performing in the first row of the
first balcony
Almost all classical recordings done these days offer the option of
changing the Rt-60 for the performer in recording.
kevin doyle.
EugeneFodorFan
2005-02-22 23:38:27 UTC
Permalink
I totally agree with your statements here. As a violinist, I believe
during a live performance (not a recording) in a bigger hall, we try to
belt it out a little more to reach the back of the hall. If the hall
is smaller, obviously, we don't have to work as hard to fill the hall.
However, some great violinists simply did not and do not have a big
sound. Milstein is a good example of this. But I believe a live
performance is quite a different beast than a recording.
EugeneFodorFan
2005-02-23 00:12:37 UTC
Permalink
Perhaps I should elaborate further. Conservatories certainly teach
projection so that a violinist's sound (I'll speak for the violin since
it is my area of "expertise") will reach the back of the hall. Of
course they don't teach rhythmic distortion; holding notes
disproportionately longer etc. Nor do they teach changing parts of
pieces dynamically to suit a hall. The violin is, after all, a pretty
small instrument to be filling today's concert halls. And there is
really a limit to just how much a fiddle player can project. It should
never be done to compromise the intent of the composer. I could go
further and say that because of this, there is a tendancy for some
modern soloists to force their sound a bit much for my taste. But, I
suppose that's subjective.
k***@rogers.com
2005-02-23 02:53:04 UTC
Permalink
Nor do they teach changing parts of
pieces dynamically to suit a hall. The violin is, after all, a pretty

small instrument to be filling today's concert halls. And there is
really a limit to just how much a fiddle player can project. It
should
never be done to compromise the intent of the composer.

So very true Eugene
kevin
Scott Dorsey
2005-02-23 00:35:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by EugeneFodorFan
But I believe a live
performance is quite a different beast than a recording.
But, do you believe that it _should_ be? I believe that it is, but that
in a perfect world, it would not be. And my goal as an engineer is to
get as close as possible to that perfect world where a window opens up
on a live concert when the record buyer drops the needle.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
EugeneFodorFan
2005-02-23 01:20:16 UTC
Permalink
But, do you believe that it _should_ be?


That's a tough question to answer. In a live concert (classical, that
is), the sound is not nearly as big (loud) as a recording. Maybe it's
that damn volume knob on the receiver. In fact, it's often argued that
recordings give false expectations to concertgoers, who are at times
disappointed with the sound of a live concert, because it's not loud
like when they listen to it at home. You spoke earlier (or someone
did) about DG. To me, their recordings sound like the mic is
practically inside the instrument. They're so bloody loud. But some
people love it.

I rather like the intimacy of recordings. I love the crackle of an lp
(which I believe sound much better than CD's). I like the privacy. I
like not having to sit next to people wearing bug spray perfume. In
many ways, it's a much better way to absorb the music.

But I also love the live concert experience, maybe for different
reasons. It's really a tough question to answer.
I guess it's ok to me if the sound of a recording is different than
being at the scene, though I can certainly understand your philosophy
as well. There is a great feeling invoked in listening to a recording
on an incredible system, really feeling like your there. It's a very
moving experience.
Edward Bridge
2005-02-23 01:29:52 UTC
Permalink
"EugeneFodorFan" <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:***@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

. You spoke earlier (or someone
Post by EugeneFodorFan
did) about DG.
Scot did , anyway for those who don't know DG is Deutsche Grammonphon . .I
think

--
Peace,
Ed Bridge
Brooklyn N.Y.
http://www.bridgeclassicalguitars.com/
Scott Dorsey
2005-02-23 13:49:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by EugeneFodorFan
. You spoke earlier (or someone
Post by EugeneFodorFan
did) about DG.
Scot did , anyway for those who don't know DG is Deutsche Grammonphon . .I
think
Yes. DG is probably the worst example today of classical recordings that
are deliberately made to sound larger than life.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Don Newmeyer
2005-02-23 18:00:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by EugeneFodorFan
I rather like the intimacy of recordings. I love the crackle of an lp
(which I believe sound much better than CD's). I like the privacy. I
like not having to sit next to people wearing bug spray perfume. In
many ways, it's a much better way to absorb the music.
But I also love the live concert experience, maybe for different
reasons. It's really a tough question to answer.
When I was young I used to go to Philadelphia Orchestra concerts at the
Academy of Music in Philadelphia. I was always REALLY disappointed with how
the concerts sounded on the local classical station.

Was this because the mic placement was poor, or because it was too faithful
to the sound of the hall? If the latter, then one could question whether we
really want recordings to be a representation of reality.

Don Newmeyer
dale
2005-02-23 18:47:42 UTC
Permalink
a lot of halls feel that the mics are in the way visualy and insist
that they be placed in a out of the way location. not sure if this is
the case for your experience.
one must also take into account the way the radio station handled the
audio.
they are concerned with broadcast issues involving frequency
modulation,
broadcast compression to ensure the maximum coverage .....
then one must ask about your radio and how good it was (reception
capability and audio quality)?

cd does sound very different from lp, maybe the mono-ing of all bass
below 100hz and then the special compression for the cutting lathe and
the mis match of impedance charateristics from the phono cartridge /
phono preamp and the induction of noise from the turntable and the lack
of any real channel seperation has given many listners the impression
that this is how stereo recordings should sound. if you grow up with
this as a "role model" and that is how your ears are educated, yes,
lp's sound "better"

dale
Scott Dorsey
2005-02-23 19:49:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by dale
capability and audio quality)?
cd does sound very different from lp, maybe the mono-ing of all bass
below 100hz and then the special compression for the cutting lathe and
the mis match of impedance charateristics from the phono cartridge /
phono preamp and the induction of noise from the turntable and the lack
of any real channel seperation has given many listners the impression
that this is how stereo recordings should sound. if you grow up with
this as a "role model" and that is how your ears are educated, yes,
lp's sound "better"
This is sadly how a lot of LPs were issued, but it's entirely possible
to produce decent recordings with real stereo imaging on LPs, as long
as you are willing to sacrifice loudness and running time.

There are plenty of LPs out there with decent bass imaging. The fact
that Murray Hill Records managed to get all of Beethoven's Ninth on
a single LP by butchering it is not necessarily a condemnation of the
LP format completely.

As always, I'll recommend listening to the RAP LP compilation which has
a couple classical cuts on it as well as some jazz, rock, folk, and other
stuff.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Paul Stamler
2005-02-23 20:11:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Newmeyer
When I was young I used to go to Philadelphia Orchestra concerts at the
Academy of Music in Philadelphia. I was always REALLY disappointed with how
the concerts sounded on the local classical station.
Was this because the mic placement was poor, or because it was too faithful
to the sound of the hall? If the latter, then one could question whether we
really want recordings to be a representation of reality.
Well, did you find the way the concerts sounded in the hall disappointing?
If not, then somehow I doubt excessive fidelity was the problem in the radio
broadcasts.

More likely poor microphone positioning, and compression in the air chain.

Peace,
Paul
Don Newmeyer
2005-02-23 20:25:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Stamler
Well, did you find the way the concerts sounded in the hall disappointing?
If not, then somehow I doubt excessive fidelity was the problem in the radio
broadcasts.
More likely poor microphone positioning, and compression in the air chain.
The live concerts were thrilling. As for the broadcasted taped recordings,
I'd guess there were indeed limitations imposed by requirements for mic
placement and other steps in the chain. However, hearing those radio
broadcasts increased my appreciation for LPs. I think a lot of them were
made to sound larger than life just because it's difficult to convey the
impact of being in a real concert.

Don
dale
2005-02-23 13:13:57 UTC
Permalink
kevin says

It is up to the engineer to capture the performance that is satisfying
to the
performer and their chosen listening audience. And at times this
process requires a lot of creativity from engineers who have gathered a
lot of knowledge from a myriad of recording experience in this area of
music. Any opinions from any who have limited or no experience in this
type of recording are futile!

Almost all classical recordings done these days offer the option of
changing the Rt-60 for the performer in recording.

eugene says

But I believe a live performance is quite a different beast than a
recording.
In a live concert (classical, that is), the sound is not nearly as big
(loud) as a recording.
In fact, it's often argued that
recordings give false expectations to concertgoers, who are at times
disappointed with the sound of a live concert, because it's not loud
like when they listen to it at home.

Conservatories certainly teach
projection will reach the back of the hall. Of
course they don't teach rhythmic distortion; holding notes
disproportionately longer etc. Nor do they teach changing parts of
pieces dynamically to suit a hall. It should
never be done to compromise the intent of the composer. I could go
further and say that because of this, there is a tendancy for some
modern soloists to force their sound a bit much for my taste.

dale says

record sales are down for classical music.
performers like eugene find fault with the modern recordings
yet engineers like kevin keep on doing the same
Edward Bridge
2005-02-23 14:07:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by dale
dale says
record sales are down for classical music.
performers like eugene find fault with the modern recordings
yet engineers like kevin keep on doing the same
I can't believe you said that... ???? Maybe think it little about what you
said. In life we have options (recording in this case) and this is great, we
have Scots , we have Kevins , we have yours and right now I don't want mine
...
If one dislike a person , fine .If they don't understand the PC of
newsgroups , fine . but I have never heard the reasons for lowers sales of
classical music is becasue of how engineers place a microphone . .lol..
..Most people (in Brooklyn) listen to music walking down the street with
little MP3 players and can't hear the difference from mono to stereo. .ha
ha



Peace,
Ed Bridge
Brooklyn N.Y.
http://www.bridgeclassicalguitars.com/
Scott Dorsey
2005-02-23 14:13:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Edward Bridge
Post by dale
dale says
record sales are down for classical music.
performers like eugene find fault with the modern recordings
yet engineers like kevin keep on doing the same
I can't believe you said that... ???? Maybe think it little about what you
said. In life we have options (recording in this case) and this is great, we
have Scots , we have Kevins , we have yours and right now I don't want mine
...
Part of the problem is that BECAUSE record sales are down for classical
music, many of the classical labels are trying very hard to get "crossover"
business, with classical albums marketed and produced like popular music.

Currently if you look at the top-selling classical albums, you will see
that almost all of them are crossover releases.

These albums are not sonically accurate, and they don't have to be because
they are marketed to people who have no idea what a real orchestra sounds
like anyway. They are mostly miked and mixed like pop music, with a lot
more spotmiking and compression than traditional classical releases, so
that they appeal to people who are used to the sound of pop releases rather
than live bands.
Post by Edward Bridge
newsgroups , fine . but I have never heard the reasons for lowers sales of
classical music is becasue of how engineers place a microphone . .lol..
..Most people (in Brooklyn) listen to music walking down the street with
little MP3 players and can't hear the difference from mono to stereo. .ha
ha
I think the reason engineers are placing microphones in this manner is
BECAUSE of the lower sales of classical music. I've been guilty of doing
it too, because that's where the money is.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Edward Bridge
2005-02-23 15:21:46 UTC
Permalink
Scot

Thanks for putting that together,

OT: I was asking me wife about doing some "crossover stuff" and she said,
"the reason why I don't is because I don't have to, that's why I have
students" she going the other why and getting more and more in into Baroque
and early music.. .
--
Peace,
Ed Bridge
Brooklyn N.Y.
http://www.bridgeclassicalguitars.com/
Post by Scott Dorsey
Post by Edward Bridge
Post by dale
dale says
record sales are down for classical music.
performers like eugene find fault with the modern recordings
yet engineers like kevin keep on doing the same
I can't believe you said that... ???? Maybe think it little about what you
said. In life we have options (recording in this case) and this is great, we
have Scots , we have Kevins , we have yours and right now I don't want mine
...
Part of the problem is that BECAUSE record sales are down for classical
music, many of the classical labels are trying very hard to get "crossover"
business, with classical albums marketed and produced like popular music.
Currently if you look at the top-selling classical albums, you will see
that almost all of them are crossover releases.
These albums are not sonically accurate, and they don't have to be because
they are marketed to people who have no idea what a real orchestra sounds
like anyway. They are mostly miked and mixed like pop music, with a lot
more spotmiking and compression than traditional classical releases, so
that they appeal to people who are used to the sound of pop releases rather
than live bands.
Post by Edward Bridge
newsgroups , fine . but I have never heard the reasons for lowers sales of
classical music is becasue of how engineers place a microphone . .lol..
..Most people (in Brooklyn) listen to music walking down the street with
little MP3 players and can't hear the difference from mono to stereo. .ha
ha
I think the reason engineers are placing microphones in this manner is
BECAUSE of the lower sales of classical music. I've been guilty of doing
it too, because that's where the money is.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Mike Rivers
2005-02-23 20:07:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Edward Bridge
OT: I was asking me wife about doing some "crossover stuff" and she said,
"the reason why I don't is because I don't have to, that's why I have
students" she going the other why and getting more and more in into Baroque
and early music.. .
Read: "That's why I have a day job."

Britney Spears doesn't need a day job because she has someone to make
records of her that sell to the mainstream buyers.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers (***@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
Chel van Gennip
2005-02-23 20:32:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Rivers
Read: "That's why I have a day job."
Britney Spears doesn't need a day job because she has someone to make
records of her that sell to the mainstream buyers.
Correction, she has someone to make publicity so her records sell to the
mainstream buyers.

Record sales often depend more on publicity than on recording or
performance quality.
--
Chel van Gennip
Visit Serg van Gennip's site http://www.serg.vangennip.com
Edward Bridge
2005-02-23 22:30:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Rivers
Read: "That's why I have a day job."
Dig Mike,
When you work for the "man" that's a day job .She (my wife) has about 35
voice students a week as do I , The students come into our home , mostly
at afternoon and night . . we're musicians/teachers , we don't work during
the day.. . lol.. Well, we do perform (Classical ) twice a week in the
early afternoons as a sort of "day job"

But your right, "That's why we have a day job." It's nice not to have play
music that's not on ones mind.. .we're very lucky to have a teaching pactice
that let's us learn music we dig .

Peace,
Ed Bridge
Brooklyn N.Y.
http://www.bridgeclassicalguitars.com/
dale
2005-02-23 14:50:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Edward Bridge
but I have never heard the reasons for lowers sales of
classical music is becasue of how engineers place a microphone . .lol..
..Most people (in Brooklyn) listen to music walking down the street with
little MP3 players and can't hear the difference from mono to stereo.
the modern recordings with crossover engineering
(lowest common demoninator) does not appeal to the traditional buyer.

kevin sounds like a nice man and must be to do the work he does
with the demands placed on him by the "stars" he collaborates with.

and let the masses of personal mp3 players waddle by.

these modern compromises do contain a pop sensibilities
and I feel that they do not do justice to the music.
I am only discussing the aesthetic of recording.
I support live music and musicians who practice the art of performance.
I like music with all the subtleties the composers and performers
have given it.
I care not for PC, I am not a lemming !
I will stand by my decades of professional experience.

dale
Edward Bridge
2005-02-23 15:17:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by dale
and let the masses of personal mp3 players waddle by.
LOl. .. right on.
Post by dale
I will stand by my decades of professional experience.
Which people like me benefit from, thank you

--
Peace,
Ed Bridge
Brooklyn N.Y.
http://www.bridgeclassicalguitars.com/
k***@rogers.com
2005-02-23 15:40:34 UTC
Permalink
kevin sounds like a nice man and must be to do the work he does
with the demands placed on him by the "stars" he collaborates with.


Quite frankly no demands are placed on anybody,
Artists chose the people they work with for what they can bring to a
project.
What they bring is their style, experience and subjective taste. I am
fortunate to be in a position where I can chose the the people i work
with. The only "Demanding Stars" i hear about, are the ones found on
the front pages on tabloids. As for classical CD sale going down, that
is flat wrong for most countries in Europe and Japan, who are the
biggest buyers.
Kevin
hank alrich
2005-02-23 18:59:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Edward Bridge
I can't believe you said that... ???? Maybe think it little about what you
said. In life we have options (recording in this case) and this is great, we
have Scots , we have Kevins , we have yours and right now I don't want mine
...
If one dislike a person , fine .If they don't understand the PC of
newsgroups , fine . but I have never heard the reasons for lowers sales of
classical music is becasue of how engineers place a microphone . .lol..
..Most people (in Brooklyn) listen to music walking down the street with
little MP3 players and can't hear the difference from mono to stereo. .ha
ha
I didn't take dale's comment as a personal thing, but as a potentially
apt observation. Maybe people _would_ appreciate more natural sounding
recordings of classical as well as other types of music. Why discount
that possiblity just because plenty of folks listen to MP3's? Are those
folks the potential customers for high quality repro of classical music?

Hey, I got an idea: whatever you play is old hat, can easily be replaced
by a MIDI track. Lots of people might not be able to tell the difference
between your instrument for real and a real MIDI track. A few good
rounds of step entry, note-by-note, and it'll all come out perfect with
none of those messy mic cords lying around. Slap a few tits on you and
away you go! <g>

If the overall quality and the style of a given approach to recording
are irrelevant in the final marketing analysis, why bother with kit
better than we could get at Radio Shack?

Mind you, I don't think YoYo Ma's sales are down...

--
ha
Edward Bridge
2005-02-23 22:48:25 UTC
Permalink
Bridge
Brooklyn N.Y.
http://www.bridgeclassicalguitars.com/
Post by hank alrich
Post by Edward Bridge
I can't believe you said that... ???? Maybe think it little about what you
said. In life we have options (recording in this case) and this is great, we
have Scots , we have Kevins , we have yours and right now I don't want mine
...
If one dislike a person , fine .If they don't understand the PC of
newsgroups , fine . but I have never heard the reasons for lowers
sales of
Post by hank alrich
Post by Edward Bridge
classical music is becasue of how engineers place a microphone . .lol..
..Most people (in Brooklyn) listen to music walking down the street with
little MP3 players and can't hear the difference from mono to stereo. .ha
ha
I didn't take dale's comment as a personal thing, but as a potentially
apt observation.
very cool, he's good/smart person and I should not make replys for 12 pm
.:>)

--Maybe people _would_ appreciate more natural sounding
Post by hank alrich
recordings of classical as well as other types of music.
I sure would .

Why discount
Post by hank alrich
that possiblity just because plenty of folks listen to MP3's? Are those
folks the potential customers for high quality repro of classical music?
right, there's always potential , hey, look at me.

thanks

Ed
Chel van Gennip
2005-02-23 20:18:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by k***@rogers.com
Post by k***@rogers.com
performers should adapt to the acoustics of the environment.
Very difficult to do if you are a touring artist or with a touring
orchestra. With piano, a performer's personality is barnded to their
interpretation. They do not have a lot of flexibility with the use of a
sustain pedal only.
A pianist has more flexibility than just the sustain pedal. In a hall
with long reverb, it is sometimes needed to stretch the duration of rests
or to shorten the sustain of some notes (either with his fingers or the
pedal). BTW these are the same techniques some preachers are using in a
hall with long reverb times.

You can hear these effects in the MP3 recordings of Chopin Scherzo-2 on the
site of my son. The video of the same piece (with bad camcorder sound) in
a different hall, has a completely different timing.
Post by k***@rogers.com
Almost all classical recordings done these days offer the option of
changing the Rt-60 for the performer in recording.
If a performer adjust to the acoustics of a hall, changing the RT-60
afterwards may result in a unnatural registration.
--
Chel van Gennip
Visit Serg van Gennip's site http://www.serg.vangennip.com
hank alrich
2005-02-19 07:19:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by EugeneFodorFan
I was told that the preamp's in the MBOX are not good so they won't
bring out the best in the mics.
For the moment disregard what you were told (I'm tellin' you! <g>) and
go ahead and make some recordings. You face a substantial learning curve
for this project. Further along when you have more experience with mic
placement, gain staging, postitioning your self within a given room,
you'll find out that the air conditioning/heating noise in the building
vastly overshadows any lack of quality in the Mbox preamps, and you
won't find out about that until you get the computer far enough away
from the mics to let the mics hear the air conditioning.

Worry about those preamps when it becomes obvious _to you_ that they are
one of the primary obstacles to better recording. And then decide how
much money you want to spend for better preamps, because there are
appropriate suggestions for budgets ranging from $500 to $4000. Even
before you go there you may find that different mics with different
patterns work better in the chosen recording space.

But stop worrying and start recording. You'll be back with many more
questions. This can be a lot of fun. Don't sweat the small stuff up
front; wait until it looms large.

--
ha
Arny Krueger
2005-02-19 11:09:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by EugeneFodorFan
OK. I've posted once before and want to thank everyone for their
help. I have 2 DPA 4052's (compact 4006's), an MBOX and protools, and
a Mac laptop, of course--all bought to record the complete
unaccompanied Bach Sonatas and Partitas and the 24 Paganini caprices
(also unaccompanied).
Sounds like a wonderful project. You've got what you need to get cracking.
Where are the MP3s for us to listen to?
Post by EugeneFodorFan
I was told that the preamp's in the MBOX are not good so they won't
bring out the best in the mics.
Yes, and my wife doesn't look like a young Bo Derek. Never did. I don't look
like Cary Grant, either. So this stopped me from having children with her?
LOL!
Post by EugeneFodorFan
What can I do about that?
Stop agonizing over what may be, and enjoy what is!
Post by EugeneFodorFan
Is there something that can connect to the MBOX to improve performance,
or do I
need an upgrade?
I need you need to get started with what you have.

You know that if I engaged in online pop psychology, I'd start rambling on
about performance anxiety related to the hard, scary parts of the job which
has nothing to do with buying equipment.

BTW, those involve playing the freakin' piano and making the bloomin'
recordings.
Post by EugeneFodorFan
Is the Digi 002 better than the MBOX? Does it have
better preamps? Any suggestions appreciated. By the way, I'm in
Omaha, Nebraska. Thanks.
No, you're in a state of confusion that would be rapidly alleviated if you
got out of this gear slut phase.
Post by EugeneFodorFan
One more question. How does a preamp affect the sound of a mic?
A mic preamp affects the sound of a mic by altering its frequency response,
phase response, noise, and nonlinear distortion. BTW, that's essentially the
same way that mics affect the sound of what you record with them.
Post by EugeneFodorFan
Yes, I'm a complete beginner. I feel like my mother with a new remote
control, tv and vcr...completely clueless.
Put the mics on the stands. Plug the cables together. Start recording and
listening to what you are recording. It will all come to you in about 20
years. ;-)
EugeneFodorFan
2005-02-19 23:01:10 UTC
Permalink
No, you're in a state of confusion that would be rapidly alleviated if
you
got out of this gear slut phase.

Oh, man. I about fell out of my seat when I read that! That was
hilarious.

Put the mics on the stands. Plug the cables together. Start recording
and
listening to what you are recording. It will all come to you in about
20
years. ;-)

Finally, a task I can handle.
T Maki
2005-02-19 15:53:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by EugeneFodorFan
I was told that the preamp's in the MBOX are not good
What can I do about that?
Is there something that can connect to the MBOX to improve performance
do I need an upgrade?
Is the Digi 002 better than the MBOX?
Does it have better preamps?
How does a preamp affect the sound of a mic?
You've gotten good and appropriate replies, most of which
deal with the issue of you not getting involved in the
technical aspects. And are exactly the reasons I advised you
to concentrate on the playing of the music and let somebody
else deal with the tech. Certainly there has to be someone
in the great city of Omaha that will help you with this -
and maybe for free, or at most, for a couple of dinners at a
nice steakhouse. Damn, if I lived in Omaha, I'd do it for
you just to get you to quit obsessing over this technical
minutiae and get on with the music <G>.


TM
EugeneFodorFan
2005-02-19 17:56:28 UTC
Permalink
All right already. You're right. It's time to make the music. Time
to get to work. I'll post when I have some music to attach. Then you
can post "technical comments" if you wish. Thanks to everyone.
Ben Bradley
2005-02-19 18:38:43 UTC
Permalink
On 19 Feb 2005 09:56:28 -0800, "EugeneFodorFan"
Post by EugeneFodorFan
All right already. You're right. It's time to make the music. Time
to get to work. I'll post when I have some music to attach. Then you
can post "technical comments" if you wish. Thanks to everyone.
Just one 'technical comment' about posting 'music to attach'. You
may already know this, but I'm saying this in case you don't.
DO NOT post binary attachments to rec.audio.pro or any other text
(does not have 'binaries' in the name) newsgroup. Put the files on a
website and post a pointer to the website (as in the "Drum Outtakes"
thread).
If you want/need help making mp3's from .wav files and putting them
on a website, feel free to ask.

-----
http://mindspring.com/~benbradley
dale
2005-02-19 18:27:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by EugeneFodorFan
I was told that the preamp's in the MBOX are not good so they won't
bring out the best in the mics. What can I do about that? Is there
something that can connect to the MBOX to improve performance, or do I
need an upgrade? Is the Digi 002 better than the MBOX? Does it have
better preamps? Any suggestions appreciated. By the way, I'm in
Omaha, Nebraska. Thanks.
One more question. How does a preamp affect the sound of a mic?
yes the pro tools le system is not the highest quality available, m box
or 002
and do not match your mic preference.
some will tell you that the pre's and convertors are weak throughout
the whole product line.
they were the given in your system, no. is this something you already
have?

get the metric halo uln2 great pre's and ada.
try another software for the daw, logic, pigital performer, dsp
quatro...

what bow are you using, what fiddle, what strings??????
you don't have a strat......

oh fiddlesticks,

let us discuss this more....

have you found the best sounding location in the room for you project?
you can spend forever trying to better enginer this but your initial
statement was you were the performer and maybe after you got some more
of this under your belt you would/could seek additional expertise.

the first step is the hardest, use your chops.

dale
EugeneFodorFan
2005-02-19 21:05:54 UTC
Permalink
"what bow are you using, what fiddle, what strings??????
you don't have a strat......"

I got rid of my hot shot Italian fiddle for a modern, better sounding
del Gesu copy made by Joseph Tripodi in NY. A fabulous maker. My bow
is a fine Bultitude which I'm quite happy with. My strings are:
E--Hill thick, A--dominant, D--Vision Titanium, G--Vision Titanium.

have you found the best sounding location in the room for you project?

I think so.
dale
2005-02-19 21:18:32 UTC
Permalink
I ask the rehtorical question and the man shows what he knows
Post by EugeneFodorFan
I got rid of my hot shot Italian fiddle for a modern, better sounding
del Gesu copy made by Joseph Tripodi in NY. A fabulous maker. My bow
E--Hill thick, A--dominant, D--Vision Titanium, G--Vision Titanium.
2 minute call to show
time to play

you know what you need to do....?
Post by EugeneFodorFan
Post by dale
have you found the best sounding location in the room for you project
?
I think so.
post some audio files and someone here will be glad to post more advise
in this matter!

dale
EugeneFodorFan
2005-02-19 22:36:41 UTC
Permalink
I ask the rehtorical question and the man shows what he knows

Oops.

2 minute call to show
time to play


you know what you need to do....?

Play in tune, with good rhythm and a good sound?
As far as recording, not really...

post some audio files and someone here will be glad to post more advise

in this matter!

Thanks. I will take all the help I can get.
EugeneFodorFan
2005-02-19 22:31:46 UTC
Permalink
is this something you already
have?

Yes.

get the metric halo uln2 great pre's and ada.
try another software for the daw, logic, pigital performer, dsp
quatro...

I have no idea what you're talking about, where to get these, etc.

he first step is the hardest, use your chops.

Agreed.
hank alrich
2005-02-19 22:47:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by dale
get the metric halo uln2 great pre's and ada.
try another software for the daw, logic, pigital performer, dsp
quatro...
I'll suggest this is no time to start learning a new DAW application.
Post by dale
I have no idea what you're talking about, where to get these, etc.
Digital Performer and Logic Pro and DSP Quattro are DAW apps.

The ULN2 is a firewire audio interface with good conversion and good
preamps. It'd kill the MBox in those regards, but again, do you want to
spend more money before you've even started recording?

Info at: http://www.mhlabs.com/metric_halo/

Now, while I have an MIO2882+DSP from Metric Halo, and I use Logic Pro
6.4.1, if you were to come to me seeking advice on a system for your
project I would probably not suggest a computer-based rig, but something
dedicated to the purpose of recording that could later be interfaced
with a computer for editing and such, something like the Sound Devices
722 which has just been released.

http://www.sounddevices.com/

Still, as I have suggested, you have enough gear to gt started and to
start learning.

--
ha
dale
2005-02-20 02:15:52 UTC
Permalink
I was told that ...
You know nothing about recording and seek advice.
you have your basic system already and it is a pro tools set up(?)
you want to get two very good microphones and wonder about the quality
of the pro tools system.
at this juncture, you need to set up your equipment and play!
go home and listen to the recordings
while you might want to focus on the "music" qualities as a performer
you are asking engineering questions here and
what you need to do is listen to your recordings as an engineer to
answer your questions.
Yes, I'm a complete beginner.
no, given your description of your fiddle, you are a practiced
musician.

Play in tune, with good rhythm and a good sound!!!!

It is time you went and layed some tracks

post some audio files and someone here will be glad to post more advise


dale


ps ignore the man behind the curtain
(***@rogers.com)
he is just a name dropper
k***@rogers.com
2005-02-21 03:13:22 UTC
Permalink
Excuse me Dale!
That would be a "name dropper" who is fortunate to work with some great
talent.
Kevin
EugeneFodorFan
2005-02-21 03:18:04 UTC
Permalink
I would really love to hear any story about Glenn. Like I said, I'm a
huge fan. In fact, my friend from Los Angeles is such a fan, she went
up to Canada and spent some time in his home town, etc. Anyway, just
thought I'd ask.
dale
2005-02-21 12:25:03 UTC
Permalink
kevin
Post by EugeneFodorFan
I don't really know. I'm reading about the various configurations
from
Post by EugeneFodorFan
dpamicrophones.com, but don't really know much yet.
I just want to hear one story from Kevin about Glenn Gould. I'm a
huge
Post by EugeneFodorFan
Gould fanatic.
I'm very sorry being a ass and thinking you were very
smart about recording but pulling my leg about working with Yo YO and
G.Gould which is two HUGE names as you know.
I'm a just grade 1 student of recording at 44 years old , I don't
know
Post by EugeneFodorFan
what's conventional and what's not so I'm all ears
hey, like they want their fan gossip, where is it???
they write here for basic advice
and get you name dropping and
giving tchniques which bear no resemblence to what they need to further
their recording choices!
just some more of the hollywood overproduced BS.

what mic position should he use when all he has is a pair of mics and
the m box???
cut the crap and give the man some real usable advice, what gould and
yo yo drink is not what he drinks!

dale

get real
Edward Bridge
2005-02-21 14:02:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by dale
dale
get real
Dale

I more or less called the person a troll and was wrong . The foul taste of
my foot in my big mouth was too real babe. . .lol ..


--
Peace,
Ed Bridge
Brooklyn N.Y.
http://www.bridgeclassicalguitars.com/
k***@rogers.com
2005-02-22 14:12:21 UTC
Permalink
give the man some real usable advice

I have sent them a lot of useful information, but have done it directly
kevin
EugeneFodorFan
2005-02-22 14:21:34 UTC
Permalink
Kevin--you've been extremely helpful, as has everyone. I truly
appreciate everyone's input.
Arny Krueger
2005-02-22 15:21:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by dale
give the man some real usable advice
I have sent them a lot of useful information, but have done it
directly kevin
BTW Kevin, did you get my email requesting a PDF of your
recording+and+production+techniques.doc
word document?

If not, I was working off the offer in your forum. My email address is arnyk
at comcast.net - (reformatted into the usual format).
k***@rogers.com
2005-02-23 03:56:05 UTC
Permalink
yes I did and sent it
tell me what you think
kevin
Arny Krueger
2005-02-24 14:09:24 UTC
Permalink
From: "Arny Krueger" <***@hotpop.com>
Subject: Re: more (stupid) questions from classical violinist
Date: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 11:42 AM
Post by k***@rogers.com
Post by Arny Krueger
BTW Kevin, did you get my email requesting a PDF of your
recording+and+production+techniques.doc
word document?
yes I did and sent it
I received it, thank you very much!
Post by k***@rogers.com
tell me what you think
It looks good to me. Regrettably I'm the exact opposite an authority about
recording contemporary music or instruments so my opinion here means very
little. It looks logical and well laid out. Rather, I'm completely
inexperienced with contemporary music and contemporay instruments. I'm
looking forward to having some work like that in the future. I am trying to
prepare myself for it.
dale
2005-02-24 17:41:53 UTC
Permalink
there is another reason the lp format is said to be "more musical".
the digital revolution with it's infinite ability to adjust to the
needs of the "interested parties" and automated realtime dsp being
employed ,
is the opposite production values of analogue systems. where the
limitations of the equipement made the initial performance more
transparent.

meaning that they fucked with it less and put it right to "tape"
most 78's were direct to disc meaning that after the master disc wore
out they would have a new session and rerecord the album. you can
have multiple versions of the same song/performer.

maybe this ....the record sounds so much better then the performer is
capable of
an thus we have
lip sync.

most people won't know good music if it bit them on the ass
frank zappa said that.
Laurence Payne
2005-02-25 00:49:59 UTC
Permalink
On 18 Feb 2005 14:27:21 -0800, "EugeneFodorFan"
Post by EugeneFodorFan
OK. I've posted once before and want to thank everyone for their help.
I have 2 DPA 4052's (compact 4006's), an MBOX and protools, and a Mac
laptop, of course--all bought to record the complete unaccompanied Bach
Sonatas and Partitas and the 24 Paganini caprices (also unaccompanied).
I am a recording engineer. I have purchased a really nice Strad
violin and bow. How do I go about playing the Paganini Caprices?

OK, it isn't as bad as that. Violin playing is a major art and
technique, sound recording a far lesser one. But it's still an art
worthy of note. You can't just buy the gear and jump in.

You're a musician. Have you got a friend who's something of a
recording engineer? Get together.

CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect
EugeneFodorFan
2005-02-25 01:00:38 UTC
Permalink
Will you be my friend? Ha, ha, just kidding. Well, in Omaha, I don't
really know anyone that can help me. So I guess I'm stuck with myself
and I'll just have to do the best I can.

I understand your post though, and hope you're not too insulted by my
feeble attempt to record this project.
dale
2005-02-25 02:06:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by EugeneFodorFan
Will you be my friend? Ha, ha, just kidding. Well, in Omaha, I don't
really know anyone that can help me. So I guess I'm stuck with myself
and I'll just have to do the best I can.
I understand your post though, and hope you're not too insulted by my
feeble attempt to record this project.
some of thelocal universities or community colleges have tech programs
and you might find someone who would like to be able to have the
experience you are looking into!
a learning experience for both of you

dale

EugeneFodorFan
2005-02-25 01:17:11 UTC
Permalink
Will you be my friend? Ha, ha, just kidding. Well, in Omaha, I don't
really know anyone that can help me. So I guess I'm stuck with myself
and I'll just have to do the best I can.

I understand your post though, and hope you're not too insulted by my
feeble attempt to record this project.
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