Effects pedal in FX loop?

[Tobiah]

I hae a Zoom G1X four that I will use with a Crate TX30BE amp.
I've seen videos that demonstrate that delay and reverb effects
sound much better in the effects loop, but I think it's because
they were overdriving the preamp, and distorting a reverb signal
sounds worse then reverbing a distorted signal.

But what about the signal levels? I assume that the 'send' jack
on my amp is post preamp, so would I be sending a line level signal
to the pedal if I put it in the FX loop? The manual for the G1X four
gives these figures:

Input:
Rate input level: -20 dBu
Input impedance (line): 470 KOhm

Output:
Max output Line
Line +2 dBu (10 kΩ or more output impedance)
Headphones 17 mW + 17 mW (32 Ω load)

There is only one input jack and one output jack.
I read the manual and it doesn't seem to have a line/instrument
setting.

When overdriving the preamp, many suggest putting any drive/distortion
pedals in front of the preamp, with time shifters like reverb chorus and
delay in the FX loop.

I'm actually going to be runing this clean most of the time, so with
max master knob level, setting volume with the premp. In that case I
think I'd be ok running the pedal in front, and if I did want a
distorted sound, I've have to rely solely on the pedal for that, without
overdriving the preamp.

So I'm really wondering whether the pedal is more at home at front or
in the loop from a levels standpoint.


Toby

[david gourley]

Post by Tobiah
I hae a Zoom G1X four that I will use with a Crate TX30BE amp.
I've seen videos that demonstrate that delay and reverb effects
sound much better in the effects loop, but I think it's because
they were overdriving the preamp, and distorting a reverb signal
sounds worse then reverbing a distorted signal.
But what about the signal levels? I assume that the 'send' jack
on my amp is post preamp, so would I be sending a line level signal
to the pedal if I put it in the FX loop? The manual for the G1X four
Rate input level: -20 dBu
Input impedance (line): 470 KOhm
Max output Line
Line +2 dBu (10 kΩ or more output impedance)
Headphones 17 mW + 17 mW (32 Ω load)
There is only one input jack and one output jack.
I read the manual and it doesn't seem to have a line/instrument
setting.
When overdriving the preamp, many suggest putting any drive/distortion
pedals in front of the preamp, with time shifters like reverb chorus and
delay in the FX loop.
I'm actually going to be runing this clean most of the time, so with
max master knob level, setting volume with the premp. In that case I
think I'd be ok running the pedal in front, and if I did want a
distorted sound, I've have to rely solely on the pedal for that, without
overdriving the preamp.
So I'm really wondering whether the pedal is more at home at front or
in the loop from a levels standpoint.
Toby

You really want to have an effects pedal that can be connected using the "4
cable method." That allows the pedal to use both the input and the Efx
loop, routing overdrive, etc to the front end while putting reverb, etc on
the Efx loop.

I use a Line 6 HX-Effects that allows for this operation. Not sure if the
G1X does or not.

david

[Tobiah]

Post by david gourley
You really want to have an effects pedal that can be connected using the "4
cable method." That allows the pedal to use both the input and the Efx
loop, routing overdrive, etc to the front end while putting reverb, etc on
the Efx loop.
I use a Line 6 HX-Effects that allows for this operation. Not sure if the
G1X does or not.

No, this pedal is inexpensive, and doesn't have a send loop in itself.
It only has one in, and one out, so it has to go in front of the amp, or
in the FX loop.

I assume that the FX send is post preamp, so it would be a different level than
the guitar going into the pedal, and the return is probably different
then going into the amp input. Would the pedal be more at home in front
of the amp from a level standpoint, or is it likely flexible enough to
work either way?

[david gourley]

Post by Tobiah

Post by david gourley
You really want to have an effects pedal that can be connected using the "4
cable method." That allows the pedal to use both the input and the Efx
loop, routing overdrive, etc to the front end while putting reverb, etc on
the Efx loop.
I use a Line 6 HX-Effects that allows for this operation. Not sure if the
G1X does or not.

No, this pedal is inexpensive, and doesn't have a send loop in itself.
It only has one in, and one out, so it has to go in front of the amp, or
in the FX loop.
I assume that the FX send is post preamp, so it would be a different level than
the guitar going into the pedal, and the return is probably different
then going into the amp input. Would the pedal be more at home in front
of the amp from a level standpoint, or is it likely flexible enough to
work either way?

In this case you should probably use it in front of the amp. Given the
limitation of not having 4-cable access, it was probably designed for
front-end use anyway.

david

[Nil]

Post by Tobiah
I hae a Zoom G1X four that I will use with a Crate TX30BE amp.
I've seen videos that demonstrate that delay and reverb effects
sound much better in the effects loop, but I think it's because
they were overdriving the preamp, and distorting a reverb signal
sounds worse then reverbing a distorted signal.
But what about the signal levels? I assume that the 'send' jack
on my amp is post preamp, so would I be sending a line level
signal to the pedal if I put it in the FX loop? The manual for
Rate input level: -20 dBu
Input impedance (line): 470 KOhm
Max output Line
Line +2 dBu (10 kΩ or more output impedance)
Headphones 17 mW + 17 mW (32 Ω load)
There is only one input jack and one output jack.
I read the manual and it doesn't seem to have a line/instrument
setting.
When overdriving the preamp, many suggest putting any
drive/distortion pedals in front of the preamp, with time shifters
like reverb chorus and delay in the FX loop.
I'm actually going to be runing this clean most of the time, so
with max master knob level, setting volume with the premp. In
that case I think I'd be ok running the pedal in front, and if I
did want a distorted sound, I've have to rely solely on the pedal
for that, without overdriving the preamp.
So I'm really wondering whether the pedal is more at home at front
or in the loop from a levels standpoint.

Reverbs and delays in front of distortions are generally considered to
be a bad thing, and logic and my experience tell me this is correct.
It's not necessarily that they are overdriving the preamp, it's that
that distorting those time-based effects will smear them up and sound
messy and ugly. But maybe you like that sound even if only for an
occasional effect.

Distortions after preamp are usually considered to be a bad thing. But
you may like it, so try it and see.

Your choices are three:

- Use the Zoom's amp emulations and go into the Crate's effects return.
The amp will function as a clean power amp and the Zoom will be the
preamp, most of your tone will come from it. You probably want to keep
the Zoom's speaker cabinet emulations off, but try it and see.

- Your plan is a good one IMO: run the pedal in front of the amp with
the amp set clean-ish. You probably want to turn the Zoom's amp and
cabinet emulations off, but try it to see if you like it. Play with the
Zoom's output level - you may not want to run it at maximum.

- If you are using only the time-based effects, running it in the loop
might be the best option.


By the way, I have one of these units that I was given as a gift. I
have hardly used it so I'm preparing to sell it. I see these going for
new for about $90. I also see them selling used for as much as $130!
Wha-wha-what!?!

[Les Cargill]

Post by Tobiah
I hae a Zoom G1X four that I will use with a Crate TX30BE amp.
I've seen videos that demonstrate that delay and reverb effects
sound much better in the effects loop, but I think it's because
they were overdriving the preamp, and distorting a reverb signal
sounds worse then reverbing a distorted signal.
But what about the signal levels?  I assume that the 'send' jack
on my amp is post preamp, so would I be sending a line level signal
to the pedal if I put it in the FX loop?  The manual for the G1X four
    Rate input level: -20 dBu
    Input impedance (line): 470 KOhm
    Max output Line
    Line +2 dBu (10 kΩ or more output impedance)
    Headphones 17 mW + 17 mW (32 Ω load)
There is only one input jack and one output jack.
I read the manual and it doesn't seem to have a line/instrument
setting.
When overdriving the preamp, many suggest putting any drive/distortion
pedals in front of the preamp, with time shifters like reverb chorus and
delay in the FX loop.
I'm actually going to be runing this clean most of the time, so with
max master knob level, setting volume with the premp.  In that case I
think I'd be ok running the pedal in front, and if I did want a
distorted sound, I've have to rely solely on the pedal for that, without
overdriving the preamp.
So I'm really wondering whether the pedal is more at home at front or
in the loop from a levels standpoint.
Toby

I need about -40dB of pad to run pedals from a bog-standard interface's
line out.

[Scott Dorsey]

Post by Tobiah
I hae a Zoom G1X four that I will use with a Crate TX30BE amp.
I've seen videos that demonstrate that delay and reverb effects
sound much better in the effects loop, but I think it's because
they were overdriving the preamp, and distorting a reverb signal
sounds worse then reverbing a distorted signal.

Right. The whole point of the effects loop is that it is about
instrument level, but it's after the first amplifier stage. So you
can overdrive the preamp before the effects if that's your thing,
without overdriving the effects.

Post by Tobiah
But what about the signal levels? I assume that the 'send' jack
on my amp is post preamp, so would I be sending a line level signal
to the pedal if I put it in the FX loop? The manual for the G1X four
Rate input level: -20 dBu
Input impedance (line): 470 KOhm
Max output Line
Line +2 dBu (10 kΩ or more output impedance)
Headphones 17 mW + 17 mW (32 Ω load)
There is only one input jack and one output jack.

None of this stuff is "line level" and the levels are actually all over
the place, which is why they all have knobs on them. All this stuff is
designed to be overdriven too, though you may or may not like how it
sounds being overdriven. This is why you get choices.

Post by Tobiah
I read the manual and it doesn't seem to have a line/instrument
setting.

Yes, the concept of line level is mostly absent in the instrument world,
except for interfaces between instruments and studio gear.

Post by Tobiah
When overdriving the preamp, many suggest putting any drive/distortion
pedals in front of the preamp, with time shifters like reverb chorus and
delay in the FX loop.
I'm actually going to be runing this clean most of the time, so with
max master knob level, setting volume with the premp. In that case I
think I'd be ok running the pedal in front, and if I did want a
distorted sound, I've have to rely solely on the pedal for that, without
overdriving the preamp.

You could do that and it would be fine, but the levels will be set
differently than if you had the pedals in the loop. Is this good?
I don't know, that depends on how you want it to sound.

Post by Tobiah
So I'm really wondering whether the pedal is more at home at front or
in the loop from a levels standpoint.

The levels are more or less the same in both places, although the
levels in the loop are more easily controlled.
--scott