DPA "high voltage" mics

[g***@hotmail.com]

has anybody tried the 130volt option with DPA omni mics and Millennia
Media preamps?

The DPA rep at AES said the high voltage option provides greater
realism and resolution. The only problem is that you can't use the
mics on a different preamp, and then you can't use a regular mic on
your modded Millennia preamp. So you really have to want this, because
then you're stuck with that setup.

[hank alrich]

Post by g***@hotmail.com
has anybody tried the 130volt option with DPA omni mics and Millennia
Media preamps?
The DPA rep at AES said the high voltage option provides greater
realism and resolution. The only problem is that you can't use the
mics on a different preamp, and then you can't use a regular mic on
your modded Millennia preamp. So you really have to want this, because
then you're stuck with that setup.

The present iteration of the Millennia HV-3D works with both types of
condensors. For the B&K's separate input XLR's are provided. The front
panel offers both "+130V" and "+48V" switches.

--
ha

[m***@gmail.com]

I have an upgraded HV-3B Millennia and it has inputs for both "+130V"
and "+48V" power as well as switches for both. IMHO it is totally worth
it, becuase the amout of detail provided by my B&K microphone is
amazing. Peace, Marco

[Phil Allison]

Post by m***@gmail.com
I have an upgraded HV-3B Millennia and it has inputs for both "+130V"
and "+48V" power as well as switches for both. IMHO it is totally worth
it, becuase the amout of detail provided by my B&K microphone is
amazing.

** Yawn - another putrid pile of a audiophool elephant shit.

Piss off.


.......... Phil

[m***@gmail.com]

Post by Phil Allison
** Yawn - another putrid pile of a audiophool elephant shit.
Piss off.
.......... Phil

Boy, you sure have anger, aggression issues.
Peace be with you Bro.....

[Phil Allison]

Post by m***@gmail.com
I have an upgraded HV-3B Millennia and it has inputs for both "+130V"
and "+48V" power as well as switches for both. IMHO it is totally worth
it, becuase the amout of detail provided by my B&K microphone is
amazing.

Post by Phil Allison
** Yawn - another putrid pile of a audiophool elephant shit.
Piss off.
....>

Boy, you sure have anger, aggression issues.

** I prefer the truth to asinine audiophool bullshit.

Believe what crap you like - but keep it to yourself in future.

Lies cause much harm.



......... Phil

[Julian]

Post by m***@gmail.com
I have an upgraded HV-3B Millennia and it has inputs for both "+130V"
and "+48V" power as well as switches for both. IMHO it is totally worth
it, becuase the amout of detail provided by my B&K microphone is
amazing. Peace, Marco

They are amazing! I had an opportunity quite a few years back to
record an album with maybe 25 fiddlers playing all at once on some of
the cuts. It was an album called Child's Play and was produced by the
Boston violin maker Bob Childs. He featured people who were
exclusively playing violins and violas he made, thus Child's Play of
course! For the big band set up we had everyone stand in a large
circle with 4 stereo pairs of B&K's pointed out from the center around
the circle. I also ran each mic directly into the Sony digital multi
track without going through the mixer from 4 stereo Summit preamps.

Julian

[Scott Dorsey]

Post by g***@hotmail.com
has anybody tried the 130volt option with DPA omni mics and Millennia
Media preamps?

Sure, there are thousands of the things out there.

Post by g***@hotmail.com
The DPA rep at AES said the high voltage option provides greater
realism and resolution. The only problem is that you can't use the
mics on a different preamp, and then you can't use a regular mic on
your modded Millennia preamp. So you really have to want this, because
then you're stuck with that setup.

No, you can use the DPA mike with an outboard power supply, then plug
the output of the supply into some other preamp. Using the Millennia
is a lot more convenient, though.

The 130V units are definitely cleaner on the top end than the 48V models
with the same capsules. They are probably the best electrets made.
--scott

[gunnar]

Some tidbits of information.

The Millenium media preamp has a separate set of connectors for the
130V option, in addition to the normal inputs. The connector is 4 pin
connector. So the Millenia is perfectly usable for other things any
time.

The DPA 130V mics has a 4 pin connector.

One alternative might be to use the DPA HMA5000 power supply / preamp.
It has a 7 pin connector in the input side and a normal 3 pin
"line-level-output". It has switchable amplification in 10dB steps,
from -30 to + 30dB. I do not like the +30dB setting from the sound I
get. I tend to use it as a "power supply", going into a preamp.
Generally I end up at about +20dB at the preamp recording classical
music.

The 130V mics have an unbalanced output. This is a bit more susceptible
to RFI, say from mobile phones, than a good phantom powered mic. So
use only high quality cable, never connect several cables after each
other or use snake, absolute maximum 25 meters. If you need longer
cables, use the HMA5000 on stage, or maybe the Millenium on stage (a
bit difficult to set levels though).

If you alternatively use the HMA5000 and the Millenia you may want to
have two sets of cables, one with the 7pin contact and one set with 4
pin contacts on the preamp end.

If you are looking at the DPA 4003 there is a 48V phantom powered
version called 4006. There is a recent addition of the 4006-TL which is
transformerless. All of them has good reputations and are used in a lot
of recording situations. I have yet to read or hear of a person who
preferrs the 4006 above the 4003 in a direct comparison.

Gunnar

[n***@comcast.net]

Post by Scott Dorsey
The 130V units are definitely cleaner on the top end than the 48V models
with the same capsules. They are probably the best electrets made.

Electrets? What does that mean?

Thanks,

Norm Strong

[Scott Dorsey]

Post by n***@comcast.net

Post by Scott Dorsey
The 130V units are definitely cleaner on the top end than the 48V models
with the same capsules. They are probably the best electrets made.

Electrets? What does that mean?

An electret is a material that is electrically polarized and holds an
electric charge. Sort of like your cat, but it does not require constant
recharging by rubbing against pants like the cat does. Officially it is
a "permanently polarized material."

Most electret materials today are ceramics, which are very good at holding
their charge and which can, with some care, be very precisely machined.

You can think of an electret as sort of like a permanent magnet for the
E field rather than the B field. It's a neat kind of thing, and pretty
impressive 1960s technology.

Using an electret as the backplate of a condenser microphone means that
no external polarization voltage is required. This is a big deal for
making an inexpensive capsule, but it turns out to be an advantage for
making some kinds of high grade capsules as well.

Electret mikes have sort of a bad reputation, mostly dating back from
the 1960s and 1970s when front-electret capsules, which used the ceramic
electret material as a diaphragm (and a very high-mass one) were being
made. That reputation today is completely undeserved and some of the
best microphones out there (like the DPAs) are designed with electret
backplates.
--scott

Post by n***@comcast.net
Thanks,
Norm Strong

[M***@uwaterloo.ca]

Post by Scott Dorsey

Post by n***@comcast.net

Post by Scott Dorsey
The 130V units are definitely cleaner on the top end than the 48V models
with the same capsules. They are probably the best electrets made.

Electrets? What does that mean?

An electret is a material that is electrically polarized and holds an
electric charge. Sort of like your cat, but it does not require constant
recharging by rubbing against pants like the cat does. Officially it is
a "permanently polarized material."
Most electret materials today are ceramics, which are very good at holding
their charge and which can, with some care, be very precisely machined.
You can think of an electret as sort of like a permanent magnet for the
E field rather than the B field. It's a neat kind of thing, and pretty
impressive 1960s technology.
Using an electret as the backplate of a condenser microphone means that
no external polarization voltage is required. This is a big deal for
making an inexpensive capsule, but it turns out to be an advantage for
making some kinds of high grade capsules as well.
Electret mikes have sort of a bad reputation, mostly dating back from
the 1960s and 1970s when front-electret capsules, which used the ceramic
electret material as a diaphragm (and a very high-mass one) were being
made. That reputation today is completely undeserved and some of the
best microphones out there (like the DPAs) are designed with electret
backplates.
--scott

Post by n***@comcast.net
Thanks,
Norm Strong

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Hey, Scott. Are the DPA really electret? If so, why do they need 130V??? I
thought they were standard condensers and used this as a polarization voltage.

On a related note, I noticed that the AKG 460/480 series seem to polarize the
capsules (CK61/62/63) to 62V instead of the usual 48V. There is some kind of
step up in the 460/480 bodies.

I'm wondering, would the CK6x series of capsules still work (well?) on a
standard 48V system. I'm thinking of using your simple circuit (FET plus
transformerless output) to run CK6x capsules directly, without the bodies.
There was a guy (jk_labs on taperssection.com) doing something like this in
the past, but I'm not sure if he used a 48V or 62V polarization voltage on the
caps.

Feel free to reply here or by Email...

Thanks,

Richard

[gunnar]

Post by M***@uwaterloo.ca
Hey, Scott. Are the DPA really electret? If so, why do they need 130V??? I
thought they were standard condensers and used this as a polarization voltage.

Yes they are electrets. Or as the marketing preferrs to call them,
prepolarized. You may read more about the company and their relation to
the line of measurement mics from Bruel & Kjare at
www.dpamicrophones.com.

And there is not really any absolute need for 130V. It is an
engineering decising to reach certain goals. Some of us finds it worth
the hassle above the standard 48V phantom. I believe you have to test
it yourself in order to know if it is worth it for you. The difference
compared to other high-end mics is rather subtle, and it takes a bit of
quality on the rest of the signal chain for it to make any difference.
It also makes next to no difference on many sound sources.

And I agree the specs are not very impressive. Only 129 dB before 0.5%
THD! I mean my Neumann KM183 pair sports 140dB. That is until you read
this little text where Neumann explains how things are measured.

"The maximum sound pressure level indicates the limits of the
electrical circuitry of the microphone." Without the capsule that is.

DPA measures THD including the capsule. In fact, Neumann does not
publish any THD figures on the full system, capsule + electronics. From
specs alone you cannot tell if the THD figure is ever below 0.5% THD.

To conclude this, it is quite a bit of hassle to go the 130V DPA route.
Chances are that it is not worth it for you. Chances are that you will
not like the sound. Chances are that some other mics are much better
for your sound source. I actually hesitate to use them on some
orchestras as they tend to reveal a bit too much of any lack of musical
quality (intonation, scratchy strings, balance and such). Some other
mics are more forgiving to the musicians.

Gunnar

[Chel van Gennip]

And there is not really any absolute need for 130V. It is an engineering
decising to reach certain goals. Some of us finds it worth the hassle
above the standard 48V phantom.

I just don't see any design benefits for this 130V, at least for a solid
state design.

And I agree the specs are not very impressive. Only 129 dB before 0.5%
THD! I mean my Neumann KM183 pair sports 140dB. That is until you read
this little text where Neumann explains how things are measured.

DPA explaines on the website the benefits of this high voltage is a higher
maximum SPL. Therefore I wrote the 129 dB is not impressive. From the AKG
C480B series specification I get a strong impression this 140 dB SPL is
measured with capsule, as the max SPL figures are not the same for all
capsules. This 140dB is acomplished at 20mv/Pa with a less than 15V for
the amplifier. Even at 40dB/Pa setting the max SPL is 134 dB.

I do like a 4th pin for power, that surely has benefits, I just don't see
the 130V benefits. I wrote my thoughts about the 48V phantom power
standard here before. I also do like the curves presented. Linear phase
for the whole audible range and above is nice!

[Richard Crowley]

"Chel van Gennip" wrote ...

I do like a 4th pin for power, that surely has benefits,...

It still uses only two inner conductors with a shield/screen
around them (i.e. "normal" mic cable). They use a 4-pin XLR
exclusively to diffrentiate the unbalanced + 130v connection
from the "standard" balanced with 48P. One pin is unused.

[Chel van Gennip]

Post by Richard Crowley
"Chel van Gennip" wrote ...

I do like a 4th pin for power, that surely has benefits,...

It still uses only two inner conductors with a shield/screen around them
(i.e. "normal" mic cable). They use a 4-pin XLR exclusively to
diffrentiate the unbalanced + 130v connection from the "standard"
balanced with 48P. One pin is unused.

So the extra pin does not even stop anyone from killing 48V microphones
with 130V? Strange!

[Paul Stamler]

Post by Chel van Gennip

Post by Richard Crowley
"Chel van Gennip" wrote ...

I do like a 4th pin for power, that surely has benefits,...

It still uses only two inner conductors with a shield/screen around them
(i.e. "normal" mic cable). They use a 4-pin XLR exclusively to
diffrentiate the unbalanced + 130v connection from the "standard"
balanced with 48P. One pin is unused.

So the extra pin does not even stop anyone from killing 48V microphones
with 130V? Strange!

Yes, it does. You can't plug a 3-pin XLR plug into a 4-pin socket; the pin
arrangements don't line up.

Peace,
Paul

[Scott Dorsey]

Post by Paul Stamler
Yes, it does. You can't plug a 3-pin XLR plug into a 4-pin socket; the pin
arrangements don't line up.

Don't worry. The 4-pin XLR is also used for 12V power for movie cameras
and the hhb Portadat, as well as for some intercom systems and DMX. So
sooner or later, someone will figure a way to blow something up.
--scott

[Phil Allison]

"Scott Dorsey"

Post by Scott Dorsey

Post by Paul Stamler
Yes, it does. You can't plug a 3-pin XLR plug into a 4-pin socket; the pin
arrangements don't line up.

Don't worry. The 4-pin XLR is also used for 12V power for movie cameras
and the hhb Portadat, as well as for some intercom systems and DMX. So
sooner or later, someone will figure a way to blow something up.

** Sure - and you can destroy any mic by plugging it into the output of a
power amp.

Or any power amp by plugging both channels into the same cabinet.

Or any mixing desk by plugging a speaker line into the mic input.

GOD you are a FUCKING PITA POSTURING ASSHOLE

Mr Dorsey !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



........... Phil

[Richard Crowley]

"Scott Dorsey" wrote ...

Post by Scott Dorsey
Don't worry. The 4-pin XLR is also used for 12V power
for movie cameras and the hhb Portadat, as well as for some
intercom systems and DMX. So sooner or later, someone
will figure a way to blow something up.

Yes :-( And I've already experienced cluless camera ops
confusing the 4-pin XLR 12VDC power connections with
the Clearcom-style headset 4-pin XLR connectors.

[Phil Allison]

"Chel van Bunyip"

Post by Chel van Gennip

Post by Richard Crowley
They use a 4-pin XLR exclusively to
diffrentiate the unbalanced + 130v connection from the "standard"
balanced with 48P. One pin is unused.

So the extra pin does not even stop anyone from killing 48V microphones
with 130V? Strange!

** What a colossal ** macaroon ** !!!!!!!!!!

Post by Chel van Gennip
Chel van Gennip
Visit Serg van Gennip's site http://www.serg.vangennip.com

** What is the link between Serge and Chel ?

Is Chel Serge's halfwit brother ??



......... Phil

[hank alrich]

Post by Chel van Gennip
So the extra pin does not even stop anyone from killing 48V microphones
with 130V? Strange!

How are you planning to connect a 3-pin XLRF to a 4-socket XLRM?

--
ha

[gunnar]

Post by Chel van Gennip
I just don't see any design benefits for this 130V, at least for a solid
state design.

I am not a microphone designer, only a user. And I cannot really tell
if you need 5 or 50 or 500 volts to make a good microphone.

I believe the important point is that the designers decided to leave
48V phantom power as the system topology from whatever reason. Once
that decision was made 25 years ago they had to select a system
voltage, system topology, cable and connector layout and such. And if
you leave 48V, the choice is open. I would not think it hade made much
difference if they had choosen, say, 90V instead.

You should really look at the mic and cable and power supply in the
same way as you look at tube mics, they go together as part of a
system. The mic cannot be used without the box on the floor. The cable
from the power supply to the mic is short and dedicated. Output from
the power supply is balanced and can run a very long length.

The currently offered power supply from DPA is the HMA5000. It has a
gain selection, a kind of advanced pad, allowing you to sometimes
connect it directly to your recording system line input. Generally I
put it at 0 and run the output to my mic pre. I think most people work
that way.

You may if you want to use Millenium or Grace preamps instead with
their 130V options installed. They then take over the power supply role
of the system.

In the end, the sound is the main point. And for that the DPA4003 has
gained a lot of respect, especially among classical music recording
engineers.

Gunnar

[hank alrich]

I just don't see the 130V benefits.

That's because we don't hear with our eyes...

To comment negatively on the potential for this circuitry without having
used it doesn't make a lot of sense to me, particularly when people
doing some of the most demanding "natural" recording work appreciate the
system.

--
ha

[Chel van Gennip]

On Sun, 16 Oct 2005 22:08:05 +0200, hank alrich wrote:>

Post by hank alrich

I just don't see the 130V benefits.

To comment negatively on the potential for this circuitry without having
used it doesn't make a lot of sense to me, particularly when people
doing some of the most demanding "natural" recording work appreciate the
system.

There is a lot of snake-oil in high-end audio. Therefore I want to
understand the reasons. Therefore I ask for the reasons when I do not see
any logical explanation.

I never said the DPA's are bad. But it could well be that the benefit is
not in the microphone or the 130V, but in the selection of circumstances,
e.g. the HMA5000 close to the 4003, forced by incompatibility.

[gunnar]

Chel,
I believe what you are wondering about is the selection of
exaclty 130V. Why not 48V or 15V or whatever?

Your calculateions shows that something like 15V is sufficient for
normal usage. I believe your math is correct. Even if you try it out at
the clipping level 154dB it ends up at about 31V (at least that is what
I believe), still a far cry from 130V.

And in that respect you are quite right. There is probably no need to
select as high voltage as 130V. Luckily DPA also makes the 4006 which
runs at 48V phantom. The 4006 is a really good mic, up along with the
very top omni mics ever made for recording classical music. That mic
uses the same capsule and same housing as the 4003 allowing you a
direct comparison. Compared to the 4006 the 4003 is a more complicated
mic to use. It requires a special power supply and special cables.

Now if we compare these two mics, we find that:
- the 4003 does not run from phantom power. Some people argue that
phantom power in some cases may not be the very best way to power a mic
if you want that last little piece of performance from the mic.
(Personally I am perfectly happy with my phantom powered mics).
- the 4003 does not have a transformer. While a good transformer migh
add things, I believe it removes a bit of the bottom end of the mic.
It might add or remove other things as well.

DPA has recently added a 4006TL, transformerless version. It has not
been around very long yet so the verdict is sort of not out yet. To be
clear, I have yet to test that one.

You must also remember that the choice of 130V was made long before the
marketing departments started running things, by a true enthusiast. You
may like his choice or not but there is no snake oil, only a really
good mic.

The system choice to not use phantom power is probably the key design
decision. Exactly what voltage to select then is totally unimportant to
me as a user. It is a bit sad from that respect that the magic seems to
have spilled onto the 130V figure as such. I mean, a Neumann U47 is
105V if I remember correctly but that is never mentioned as the mic is
always used with its power supply. (I know, a tube requires that kind
of voltage). And just maybe a few resellers and even a few employees of
DPA might have been sort of lured by this magic number.

It is fully possible to run the 4003 on a lower supply voltage. DPA
even makes a small converter, PCC4000, allowing you to run it on a
normal 48V phantom power line. If you wanted to, you could probably
easily make a power supply allowing you to vary the voltage and test
things out that way.

You should also know that I am not trying to convince you that the 4003
is better than anything else. There is only one way I recommend there,
and that is for you test things out yourself. As always with mics. If
you select things like Sennheiser MKH20, Neumann KM183, Earthworks
QTC30 (earlier called QTC1), Microtech Gefell M270 or for that matter
any other small diameter omni often used in recording acoustic music (I
have probably forgotten a lot in the list), I think you will find the
4003 to have the edge in many usages. Not in all though. Now your
tools.


Gunnar

[Chel van Gennip]

Post by gunnar
Your calculateions shows that something like 15V is sufficient for
normal usage. I believe your math is correct. Even if you try it out at
the clipping level 154dB it ends up at about 31V (at least that is what
I believe), still a far cry from 130V.
And in that respect you are quite right. There is probably no need to
select as high voltage as 130V.

The question is indeed: "Will 130V give us better quality and what to
think about the DPA claims?"

There seems to be no foundation for the claims made by DPA:

The DPA rep at AES said the high voltage option provides greater
realism and resolution.

On the DPA website I read for the 4003:
Type 4003 is acoustically identical with the studio standard Type 4006,
but differs in the powering system. The hi-voltage system enables the
4003 to handle app. 10 dB higher SPL than the 4006.

I think there is no benefit at all in using 130V for a microphone. There
could be some positive effect from a separation between supply power and
signal. There could also be some negative effect from not using balanced
output. This negative effect could be smaller when only short cables are
used.

It is clear the claim on the DPA website is false, as this 10dB higher
SPL does not show up when I compare the 4003 with the 48V 4006TL

[gunnar]

I am starting to get the impression that you know just that little
about microphone design, or for that matter about any kind of
electronic design. Just enough to believe that the thruth is only in
the numbers. Well, be surprised, mics should be designed and selected
by ears. The numbers are really not much use at all. It is like with
wine, the alcoholic content does not tell you very much about the
taste.

I have spent a lot of time on this forum trying to tell you that the
DPA4003 is one of the worlds best mics. It is especially well known for
recording things such as grand pianos, organs and symphony orchestras.
I would sort of think that it would interest you. But.

The single thing you are coming back to is "I think there is no benefit
at all in using 130V for a microphone". This is on the same level as
saying that "I think there is no benefit in having double spark plugs
in every cylinder in an Alfa Romeo twin spark". You know what, I
don´t care either. That is absolutely not any part of my decision
process, what matters is how good the car is to drive and own.
(Incidently I own a Toyota).

I think you are looking at the wrong thing. Never mind the voltage,
just try a DPA4003 on a grand piano and see if you like it. It will
probably need a good sized concert hall and a good engineer for setting
up as omnis generally will reveal bad acoustics and beeing setup in the
wrong place. There has been a lot of classical recordings of grand
pianos done with this mic, for good reasons. But, and there is always
that for every mic, the sound may not be everyones first choice. Some
like other mics or setups instead. Your choice.

If you look around a bit I think you can probably find 4003-s for rent.
They are really rather common and has been around for a long time.
Renting mics is generally surprisingly cheap compared to buying them.

Now as a next best thing, if you cannot try the 4003, do try a pair of
4006 or 4006TL

And while you are at it, do try other great omni mics. I think the ones
you should really try include a long list until you find your
favourites. It is a bit like tasting wine, soo much to choose from. And
as wines fit to different dishes, I believe mics fit to different
instruments and halls and rooms.

If you are interested in "variation in technology", this list might be
an indication. (I have only ever heard a few of them)

- really small diameter electrets: Earthworks QTC30 (earlier known as
QTC1, they changed the name a while ago)
- small diameter metal diaphragm in a sphere : Neumann M150Tube (the
original M50 is a legend but a bit difficult to get hold on)
- nickel diaphragm (the dpa are steel) : Microtech Gefell M296
- normal small diameter condensors include for example Schoeps CMC6+MK2
(there are a few different MK2 capsules)
- some of the large diameter mics can be set in omni mode. Neumanns
comes to my mind.
- and probably a lot more mics

And when you are done with that list, you may want to try some really
good ribbon mics (probably not the first choice for piano though). And
don´t forget the cardoid mics either. There are almost as many mics to
choose from as there are wines. But the voltage is not a very important
question, exactly like the alcoholic content is rather uninteristing
for wines.

Gunnar

[Bob Cain]

Post by gunnar
But the voltage is not a very important
question, exactly like the alcoholic content is rather uninteristing
for wines.

Unless you happen to be primarily a technologist as some of
us here are. To us, "why" is important and in this case, an
electret with 130V supply has no conceivable "why". If
there is in fact a reason that makes a difference we'd like
to understand it.


Bob

[me]

Post by Bob Cain
Unless you happen to be primarily a technologist as some of
us here are. To us, "why" is important and in this case, an
electret with 130V supply has no conceivable "why". If
there is in fact a reason that makes a difference we'd like
to understand it.
Bob

If there are any "technologists" here, they are far and few between, and
you are certainly not one of them. A real "tehnologist" is not someone,
like you, who recently denied the existence of frequency modulation
(Doppler) distortion in a loudspeaker driver (piston) which was analyzed
and published by Beers & Belar in 1943. You are a technical fraud, and you
have little if any accurate technical knowledge of the numerous subjects
about which you pontificate.

[Bob Cain]

Gary Sokolich wrote:

[his usual sociopathic rant]

"me" is actually Gary Sokolich. He stalks me in any usenet
group in which I participate. He makes it impossible to
filter his trash out by constant nymshifting but his ravings
are easily recognizable. Please ignore.


Bob

[Gary Sokolich]

Post by Bob Cain
[his usual sociopathic rant]
"me" is actually Gary Sokolich. He stalks me in any usenet
group in which I participate. He makes it impossible to
filter his trash out by constant nymshifting but his ravings
are easily recognizable. Please ignore.
Bob

The truth of the matter is that Bob Cain has been stalking and harassing me
on the internet for the past five years. This is just the latest search-
sensitive tactic used by Bob Cain in is continuing obsessive crusade aimed
at besmirching me on the internet.

[hank alrich]

Post by Gary Sokolich
The truth of the matter is that Bob Cain has been stalking and harassing me
on the internet for the past five years. This is just the latest search-
sensitive tactic used by Bob Cain in is continuing obsessive crusade aimed
at besmirching me on the internet.

And that's why Bob Cain changes his email addy daily to escape
filters... but wait, he doesn't... so that means you have some purpose
in flailing your penis in public?

Search senstivie tactic? You moron.

--
ha

[Bob Cain]

Post by Gary Sokolich

Post by Bob Cain
[his usual sociopathic rant]
"me" is actually Gary Sokolich. He stalks me in any usenet
group in which I participate. He makes it impossible to
filter his trash out by constant nymshifting but his ravings
are easily recognizable. Please ignore.
Bob

The truth of the matter is that Bob Cain has been stalking and harassing me
on the internet for the past five years.

LOL! You are completely full of shit and really don't know
it. Sad. The inside of your head is its own best
punishment. No way I could improve on the hell in there.

Post by Gary Sokolich
This is just the latest search-
sensitive tactic used by Bob Cain in is continuing obsessive crusade aimed
at besmirching me on the internet.

Have you searched Google on your name recently? You are
besmirching yourself. I need only tag your waste with your
real name when it's aimed my way. Wish I'd started it long ago.


Bob

[Gary Sopkolich]

Post by Bob Cain
LOL! You are completely full of shit and really don't know
it. Sad. The inside of your head is its own best
punishment. No way I could improve on the hell in there.

Fascinating! You are not only a lying, hypocritical and sadistic
sociopath, you are also an arrogant narcissist to think/claim that you know
what is going on inside my head.

BTW, when your ex-wife dumped you, were you also beating her in order to
satisfy your sadistic pleasure or were you just tormenting her with
verbal/psychological abuse?

Post by Bob Cain

Post by Gary Sokolich
This is just the latest search-
sensitive tactic used by Bob Cain in is continuing obsessive crusade
aimed at besmirching me on the internet.

Have you searched Google on your name recently? You are
besmirching yourself.

I have, and what I find is a series of recent false, defamatory assertions
made by a sadistic psychopath by the name of Bob Cain.

Post by Bob Cain
I need only tag your waste with your real name when it's aimed my way.

Blame me for whatever you believe, but in the long run be prepared to
provide proof of your assertions. However keep in mind that I am only one
of several people who recognize you as the lying, hypocritical, sadistic
and sociopathic scumbag that you really are.

Post by Bob Cain
Wish I'd started it long ago.
Bob

No big deal. Look on the bright side. This feud is in its infancy and can
can go on for the next 20-30 years.

[Dr. Dolittle]

<a bunch of crap>

You do realize how annoying you are?

[Arny Krueger]

Post by Dr. Dolittle

<a bunch of crap>

You do realize how annoying you are?

I'm thinking more like boring and repetive, not to mention a
tad delusional.

[Chel van Gennip]

I am starting to get the impression that you know just that little about
microphone design, or for that matter about any kind of electronic
design. Just enough to believe that the thruth is only in the numbers.

Gunnar, I don't like it when you twist my words. I've never said that the
truth is only in numbers. I only wrote I don't see how a higher voltage
will lead to better quality for a microphone as claimed by DAP.

As you write there are quite a lot of good microphones, sometimes it is
hard to choose. First criterium in audio these days is avoid manufacturers
that sell magic. I know B&K as a respectable manufacturer from the 70's,
terefore I was surprised to see a statement: "The DPA rep at AES said the
high voltage option provides greater realism and resolution."

That is selling magic. Magic does sell well, but I'm not a buyer.

...

I think you are looking at the wrong thing. Never mind the voltage, just
try a DPA4003 on a grand piano and see if you like it.

I never denied the DPA4003 is a good microphone. Difficult for me to
judge, as I have not tried them. I don't even mind the voltage. I do mind
DAP saying "Our microphone is better because we are using a higher
voltage.' That stops me from even trying, just as much as statements from
power cable sellers that tell me "Our power cable has a shorter burn-in
time because we use space technology for the isolation" and "You should
really try our power chord to experience the improved realism and
resolution in the mid high's"

The thing I was looking at was credability.

I expect realism in specifications and descriptions before I expect
realism in products. When I made the shortlist of microphones to try, I
avoided "warm", "vintage" etc. and several forms of sales magic.

[gunnar]

I never denied the DPA4003 is a good microphone. Difficult for me to
judge, as I have not tried them. I don't even mind the voltage. I do
mind
DAP saying "Our microphone is better because we are using a higher
voltage.' That stops me from even trying,

But you have misunderstood the message. What DPA are saying is that the
"hi-voltage version" is better than the "phantom version" when compared
to each other. They are not comparing to other microphones from other
manufacturers.

Gunnar

[gunnar]

I might add that the quotation marks disappeared in the answer above.

One of the really nice things with the DPA microphones is that you do
not have to rely on any marketing material, you can easily test for
yourself. The exact same capsule is available with four different
types of electronics:
- 4003 - the high-voltage version
- 4006 - phantom power, with transformer
- 4006 TL - phantom power, transformeless
- 4051 - compact capsule (in addition there are variations on this with
different cables, 4052 and 4053)

If you are seriously interested in getting good recording mics, you
should never buy on anything else than what your ears tell you. So do
arrange with the distributor to test them yourself. If after that test
you still think that the 4003 is marketing hype, no problem with me. In
addition, as DPA has delivered the 4003 unchanged for 25 years there
should be engineers around you who has experience with the mic. Do talk
to them as well. (The first few years the mics were branded B&K).

To my ears the difference is small but real between the 4006 and the
4003. I would not care if the 4003 would run on 5 or 500 Volts, the
only thing mattering is the sound. It is important only when I make my
own cables. I have searched quite a bit for that really good omni main
pair for classical recordings. My ears says that the 4003 is the best
they have heard so far. It might be that some other mic may be better,
but I have yet to hear that.

As I like to dabble in technology and electronics myself, I am not
convinced either that you really need as high voltage. I am convinced
though that it does not DETRACT from the performance of this mic. But
the important thing is not the exact voltage but that it is a different
system setup: extra power supply and special cables. Any company can
make their mics with this setup if they want to. Very few does, simply
because the difference is really small. In the world however you will
find recording engineers that modifies their phantom powered mics to
use a different powering scheme going to great pain and expense. Their
choice.

Gunnar

[Chel van Gennip]

Post by Chel van Gennip
I never denied the DPA4003 is a good microphone. Difficult for me to
judge, as I have not tried them. I don't even mind the voltage. I do mind
DAP saying "Our microphone is better because we are using a higher
voltage.' That stops me from even trying,
But you have misunderstood the message. What DPA are saying is that the
"hi-voltage version" is better than the "phantom version" when compared
to each other. They are not comparing to other microphones from other
manufacturers.

On the DPA website I read for the 4003:
Type 4003 is acoustically identical with the studio standard Type 4006,
but differs in the powering system. The hi-voltage system enables the
4003 to handle app. 10 dB higher SPL than the 4006.

That is nonsense, 130V does not help in any way to get this 129 dB SPL
level at 40mV/Pa, and it is untrue as the transformerless version of the
4006 has exactly the same high SPL specifications.

[gunnar]

Check the figure "Max SPL peak before clipping". 154dB as compared to
143dB. If that is not approximately 10dB, you tell me. Note also that
they write "the hi-voltage system", not 130V. The system includes how
the mic gets its power. (Whether the difference between 154dB or 143dB
really matters in most real world situations is a different thing).

The "hi-voltage system" does not use 9V batteries. Now tell me that 9V
is perfectly adequate. If you still believe that, get an AKG C1000. Or
if 9V is not good enough give a figure you believe in.

My guess is that the 129dB at 0.5% THD which you referr to is probably
mostly capsule distortion, roughly the same regardless of the
electronics.

You should check other mics, I can bet that they only measure the
electronics when they give THD figures, leaving the capsule out of the
equation. Neumann is open about it. AKG avoids the issue, but my guess
is that they do the same. If you know any other mic that measures THD
including capsule, you may point us all to that.

Stop looking at the figures. Go LISTEN to the mic.

Gunnar

[Chel van Gennip]

Post by gunnar
Check the figure "Max SPL peak before clipping". 154dB as compared to
143dB. If that is not approximately 10dB, you tell me. My guess is that
the 129dB at 0.5% THD which you referr to is probably mostly capsule
distortion, roughly the same regardless of the electronics.

If I think about a SPL level for transforming sound into an signal, the
relation between sound and signal should be clear: a maximal difference
between sound and signal or distortion figure. I did not have the
intention to use my ears to check the sound quality of a microphone at
154dB SPL. A statement that above 154dB the signal no longer increases
with higher sound levels does not say much, but might be interesting if
you have a need to measure sound levels of aircrafts at close range. (As
is the bussiness of Brüel & Kjær where this microphone found its roots)

Post by gunnar
You should check other mics, I can bet that they only measure the
electronics when they give THD figures, leaving the capsule out of the
equation. Neumann is open about it. AKG avoids the issue, but my guess
is that they do the same. If you know any other mic that measures THD
including capsule, you may point us all to that.

I think the German consumer laws are rather strict. In the AKG
specification I see no "avoiding the issue":
"C 480 B with CK 62/ULS. The microphone shall be of the condenser type
with capsule and powering module assembly no larger than 0.8 in. (21 mm)
in diameter. The microphone shall accept phantom powering at 48 volts.
The nominal output impedance shall be equal to or less than 150 ohms at
1 kHz, and the output shall be transformerless. The microphone shall
provide a three position control for normal (0 dB), elevated sensitivity
(+6 dB), and attenuated (-10 dB) sensitivity. Switchable low-frequency
cuts at 150 Hz and 75 Hz at 12 dB/octave shall be provided. The polar
pattern shall be omnidirectional and nominal on-axis frequency response
shall be 20 Hz-20 kHz. For the normal sensitivity setting of 0 dB,
microphone sensitivity shall be at least 20 mV/Pa, and the self noise
floor shall be no higher than 11 dB-A. The 0.5% THD operating level
shall be no lower than 140 dB SPL. The microphone shall be the AKG Model
C 480 B preamp operating with the AKG Acoustics Model CK 62/ULS
capsule."

Please note the phrase: "The microphone shall be the AKG Model C 480 B
preamp operating with the AKG Acoustics Model CK 62/ULS capsule." in the
specification that writes "The 0.5% THD operating level shall be no lower
than 140 dB SPL."

For the C 480 B with CK 69/ULS the specification reads:
"on-axis frequency response shall be 20 Hz-18 kHz. For the normal
sensitivity setting of 0 dB, microphone sensitivity shall be at least 27
mV/Pa, and the self noise floor shall be no higher than 9 dB-A. The 0.5%
THD operating level shall be no lower than 140 dB SPL."

[gunnar]

Chel. How come you believe the marketing material from AKG, but not
from DPA?

I tell you what: If you can get a signed certificate from an official
representative of AKG that they measure THD to 0.5% or less at 140dB
sound pressure with capsule and electronics of the AKG Model C480B and
CK 62/ULS I will pay you 100 Euro. From my own private pockets. I think
that will make one of us to shut up. Offer closes by October 30.

Gunnar

[Chel van Gennip]

Chel. How come you believe the marketing material from AKG, but not from
DPA?

OK I believe the 4003 is capable of sending 120V T/T at less than 75 ohm
(about 50W!) to my preamp, propably at a distortion greater than 50% (if I
read the DPA specifications well), but who cares. I can be sure that if
someone touches this microphone with his instrument, only the preamps with
sufficent headroom will survive.

I normally see this as a feature of measuring microphones (as the 4003 was
designed to be) but not as a feature of recording microphones.

Until now I have no intention to record aircrafts at short range and I
have no intention to test if my equipment will survive 60V input levels.
Often input stages that should handle uV levels don't like these voltages.

Again, this has nothing to do with recording music and is not part of the
120 dB dynamic range specified by DPA.

There are benefits in a 130V supply voltage if you want to measure sound
_levels_ of aircrafts.

[gunnar]

Chel,
stop reading the specs. The answer is not in the numbers.

Arrange to listen to the mic!

Gunnar

[Benjamin Maas]

Hmm.... 2 microphones with different electronics can't possibly be
different... The manufacturer MUST be wrong...

Listen to yourself.

Can't speak to the SPL handling as i've never hit any mic with 140+dB of
sound, however I have used 4003's and 4006's. I definitely prefer the 4003s
as the sound is more open than the 4006s. Perhaps the TL version of the
4006 will change that (according to a friend that has used the TLs, this is
the case, but I haven't personally used it).

Also, be aware that the 4003 from what I understand is also an unbalanced
microphone and therefore you should keep the power supply as close as
possible to the mic. You can run 100 feet, but not much longer than that.

--Ben
--
Benjamin Maas
Fifth Circle Audio
Los Angeles, CA
http://www.fifthcircle.com

please remove "nospam" upon reply

Post by Chel van Gennip

Post by Chel van Gennip
I never denied the DPA4003 is a good microphone. Difficult for me to
judge, as I have not tried them. I don't even mind the voltage. I do mind
DAP saying "Our microphone is better because we are using a higher
voltage.' That stops me from even trying,
But you have misunderstood the message. What DPA are saying is that the
"hi-voltage version" is better than the "phantom version" when compared
to each other. They are not comparing to other microphones from other
manufacturers.

Type 4003 is acoustically identical with the studio standard Type 4006,
but differs in the powering system. The hi-voltage system enables the
4003 to handle app. 10 dB higher SPL than the 4006.
That is nonsense, 130V does not help in any way to get this 129 dB SPL
level at 40mV/Pa, and it is untrue as the transformerless version of the
4006 has exactly the same high SPL specifications.
--
Chel van Gennip
Bezoek Serg van Gennip's site http://www.serg.vangennip.com

[gunnar]

Ben.

Welcome to the thread. Seems like Chel believes DPA is only marketing
hype. Sort of attacks this from the point that "I cannot understand why
they need 130V, surely anything above 15 is only stupid". And "someone
heard a DPA rep say that the 130V is better", surely that must be only
snake oil.

I feel like an idiot walking into this. He is not going to listen
anyway, so I might as well give up.

Gunnar

[n***@comcast.net]

Post by Chel van Gennip

Post by Chel van Gennip
I never denied the DPA4003 is a good microphone. Difficult for me to
judge, as I have not tried them. I don't even mind the voltage. I do mind
DAP saying "Our microphone is better because we are using a higher
voltage.' That stops me from even trying,
But you have misunderstood the message. What DPA are saying is that the
"hi-voltage version" is better than the "phantom version" when compared
to each other. They are not comparing to other microphones from other
manufacturers.

Type 4003 is acoustically identical with the studio standard Type 4006,
but differs in the powering system. The hi-voltage system enables the
4003 to handle app. 10 dB higher SPL than the 4006.
That is nonsense, 130V does not help in any way to get this 129 dB SPL
level at 40mV/Pa, and it is untrue as the transformerless version of the
4006 has exactly the same high SPL specifications.

Let's parse the statement accurately. Do the specifications for the 4003
state that it will handle 10db higher SPL than the 4006? Not the 4006TL;
the 4006.

I'll admit that the reasoning behind the DPA statement escapes me, but I'd
like to know if the specs themselves back up the statement.

Norm Strong

[Scott Dorsey]

Post by M***@uwaterloo.ca
Hey, Scott. Are the DPA really electret? If so, why do they need 130V??? I
thought they were standard condensers and used this as a polarization voltage.

No, it's for the electronics.

Post by M***@uwaterloo.ca
On a related note, I noticed that the AKG 460/480 series seem to polarize the
capsules (CK61/62/63) to 62V instead of the usual 48V. There is some kind of
step up in the 460/480 bodies.

Right, this is normal, and the vast majority of externally-polarized mikes
today use a DC-DC converter to polarize the capsule at a higher voltage
than the phantom supply allows.

Post by M***@uwaterloo.ca
I'm wondering, would the CK6x series of capsules still work (well?) on a
standard 48V system. I'm thinking of using your simple circuit (FET plus
transformerless output) to run CK6x capsules directly, without the bodies.
There was a guy (jk_labs on taperssection.com) doing something like this in
the past, but I'm not sure if he used a 48V or 62V polarization voltage on the
caps.

The noise floor will be higher, and because the electrostatic attraction of
the diaphragm to the plate is decreased, the frequency response will change
a little bit too. But I don't think it will be terrible. The hard part
is getting all that stuff to fit inside the handle...
--scott

[Richard Crowley]

...some of the best microphones out there (like the
DPAs) are designed with electret backplates.

If the capsule polaraization is accomplish with an
electret charge, what is the 130v for? Surely the
solid-state electronics don't need it?

[Phil Allison]

"Richard Crowley"

...some of the best microphones out there (like the DPAs) are designed
with electret backplates.

If the capsule polaraization is accomplish with an electret charge, what
is the 130v for? Surely the
solid-state electronics don't need it?

** Err - it is yet another example of the "high volts = sounds better"
scam.

Relies on the " one born every minute" premise.


........ Phil

[g***@hotmail.com]

thanks everyone, i learned so much (seriously).

i didn't know the latest incarnation of the HV-3 had switchable mic
voltages.

the cat thing is hilarious!

[n***@comcast.net]

Post by Scott Dorsey

Post by n***@comcast.net

Post by Scott Dorsey
The 130V units are definitely cleaner on the top end than the 48V models
with the same capsules. They are probably the best electrets made.

Electrets? What does that mean?

An electret is a material that is electrically polarized and holds an
electric charge. Sort of like your cat, but it does not require constant
recharging by rubbing against pants like the cat does. Officially it is
a "permanently polarized material."
Most electret materials today are ceramics, which are very good at holding
their charge and which can, with some care, be very precisely machined.
You can think of an electret as sort of like a permanent magnet for the
E field rather than the B field. It's a neat kind of thing, and pretty
impressive 1960s technology.
Using an electret as the backplate of a condenser microphone means that
no external polarization voltage is required. This is a big deal for
making an inexpensive capsule, but it turns out to be an advantage for
making some kinds of high grade capsules as well.
Electret mikes have sort of a bad reputation, mostly dating back from
the 1960s and 1970s when front-electret capsules, which used the ceramic
electret material as a diaphragm (and a very high-mass one) were being
made. That reputation today is completely undeserved and some of the
best microphones out there (like the DPAs) are designed with electret
backplates.

I guess I should have been more forthcoming in my post. I know what at
electret is. What I wanted to know was what is the reason for 130v in an
electret mike? I was guessing that perhaps the 4003 was not, in truth, an
electret mike. Either that, or the 130v is ADDED polariazation---or---this
is not phantom power; the 130v is supplied separately. In which case there
would have to be an extra wire in the mike cable.

Is any of this true?

Norm Strong

[gunnar]

1 - it is a prepolarized electret. No added polarization
2 - the 130V is the only power supplied to the mic.
3 - the 130V drives only the electronics.
4 - it is not phantom power
5 - there are exactly three wires in the cable from the power supply to
the mic:
130V
Ground
Audio signal
6 - why 130V? I think you have to ask DPA about that. But as they
already had decided on an external power supply, why not. What
alternative would you suggest?

Clear enough?

[Chel van Gennip]

1 - it is a prepolarized electret. No added polarization 2 - the 130V is
the only power supplied to the mic. 3 - the 130V drives only the
electronics. 4 - it is not phantom power 5 - there are exactly three
130V
Ground
Audio signal

Thanks for the clarification.

6 - why 130V? I think you have to ask DPA about that. But as they
already had decided on an external power supply, why not. What
alternative would you suggest?

If I read the specs well, the DPA 4003 does 40mv/Pa and will do that until
129 dB SPL at 0.5% distortion. 40mV/Pa results in less than 2.5V rms at
129 dB SPL. Normally the internal circuit for a condensor microphone has
an amplification factor of 1, extreme high input impedance and low output
impedance. I see no reaon at all for such a circuit to perform better with
a supply voltage of 130 V. Any supply voltage for such a circuit above
about 15V will not likely result in better characteristics.

The question was asked DPA, there are two answers:

The DPA rep at AES said the high voltage option provides greater realism
and resolution.

On the DPA website I read for the 4003:
Type 4003 is acoustically identical with the studio standard Type 4006,
but differs in the powering system. The hi-voltage system enables the
4003 to handle app. 10 dB higher SPL than the 4006.

Both answers on the same question are quite different, for both answers
there is no technological background. You don't need 130V to create a x1
solid state amplifier with an output amplitude of 2.5V rms, and there is
no reason to think a 130V supply will improve results for this x1
amplifier.

This just does smell like snake-oil.

[n***@comcast.net]

Post by gunnar
1 - it is a prepolarized electret. No added polarization
2 - the 130V is the only power supplied to the mic.
3 - the 130V drives only the electronics.
4 - it is not phantom power
5 - there are exactly three wires in the cable from the power supply to
130V
Ground
Audio signal
6 - why 130V? I think you have to ask DPA about that. But as they
already had decided on an external power supply, why not. What
alternative would you suggest?
Clear enough?

I'm afraid not, but that's OK because I'm not considering the purchase of
this mike or any other DPA mike. Thank you for your efforts.

Norm Strong

[svendesign]

I have some experience with dpa mics...
ok for the record:
130volts is used because it increases the sensitivity of the mic allowing it
to capture much more detail...
and 130v is the phantom power for that mic.
I would highly doubt that the output of the mic is 120v... it is probably
more like 12v rms... I have never had a problem with distortion on any dpa
mic...

Kristian

Post by n***@comcast.net

Post by gunnar
1 - it is a prepolarized electret. No added polarization
2 - the 130V is the only power supplied to the mic.
3 - the 130V drives only the electronics.
4 - it is not phantom power
5 - there are exactly three wires in the cable from the power supply to
130V
Ground
Audio signal
6 - why 130V? I think you have to ask DPA about that. But as they
already had decided on an external power supply, why not. What
alternative would you suggest?
Clear enough?

I'm afraid not, but that's OK because I'm not considering the purchase of
this mike or any other DPA mike. Thank you for your efforts.
Norm Strong

[Scott Dorsey]

Post by n***@comcast.net
I guess I should have been more forthcoming in my post. I know what at
electret is. What I wanted to know was what is the reason for 130v in an
electret mike? I was guessing that perhaps the 4003 was not, in truth, an
electret mike. Either that, or the 130v is ADDED polariazation---or---this
is not phantom power; the 130v is supplied separately. In which case there
would have to be an extra wire in the mike cable.
Is any of this true?

No, the 130V is used to power the electronics. This may be a historical
thing left over from the tube days (like the HP mikes with the 200V power
supply that was dropped down to 28V internally). I've never actually taken
one of the 130V mikes apart.
--scott

[Chel van Gennip]

The DPA rep at AES said the high voltage option provides greater realism
and resolution.

On the DPA website I read for the 4003:
Type 4003 is acoustically identical with the studio standard Type 4006,
but differs in the powering system. The hi-voltage system enables the
4003 to handle app. 10 dB higher SPL than the 4006.

It seems there is not much realism the salesmans statement.
Both the 29 dB noise floor and the 129 dB 0.5% peak SPL are not
impressive. I don't see the need for this extreme voltage, specifically
not for an electret.