FA : Brent Averill Neve 1272 mic preamp-2 ch w/PS

[MillerBud]

these pres are made from original neve modules not from averill's clone.  the
faceflate says "made from neve 1272 modules" on the front and the screws -

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2545713717

[Geoff Tanner]

Post by MillerBud
these pres are made from original neve modules not from averill's clone.  the
faceflate says "made from neve 1272 modules" on the front and the screws -
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2545713717

Hi

Let me preface this by saying that I'm sure that they are a great pair
of 1272's and it's probably a really great deal.

When I read the eBay post though, I wondered if I was reading an
advertisement for a 1073 because you mentioned that module three
times...

Same Class A preamp as Neve 1073 equalizer/preamp modules
Pad is an integral part of the gain switch same as Neve 1073
The 1073 preamp yields a really fat sound

The B283/AV does indeed live in both the 1272 and the 1073, but the
big difference is that the 1073 also has a 3 pole sensitivity switch
and a B284 pre amp. The 1272 was never used as a mic pre by Neve
except as a talkback amplifier and, even then, it was wired with the
gain equally distributed between the two amplifiers.

The comments apply to most 1272 adaptations and, with possibly one
exception, they are all wired incorrectly and not how Neve would have
wired them (the equal gain splitting) had they decided to use the
module as a mic pre. Most of these 1272 mods owe their heritage to a
misguided web page that purported to be the way a 1272 should be
wired.... it was a long way from reality.

If Neve had designed a 1272 mic pre (instead of the 1290) they would
have used a three pole switch. The first pole controlling an input
attenuator, the second pole the front amp gain boost, and the third
pole the second amp gain boost.

In reality, the 1272 conversions mostly use a 2 pole switch with the
first pole as the input attenuator and the second pole controlling the
first amp's gain. The second amp nurdles along at a relatively low
gain whilst all the gain boost is applied to the first amp.

In order to get 70dB of gain (forget trying to achieve the 1073's 80dB
gain!) the front amplifier uses a gain boost resistor in the region of
8 or 9 ohms. The coupling capacitor in series with this resistor was
never intended for so low a value and the low frequency response
plummets at high gains... on top of the issue of running the first
stage at very near open loop gain.

There is nothing 1073 about how this gain control works and if you put
a 1272 alongside a 1073 at 70dB gain you would hear a hell of a lot of
difference in the sound, similar components or not. The reason for
this is that it may be a Neve module, but it's an OEM/retro builder
design... not a Neve design.

In reality, up to around 40dB gain, the 1272 will sound like a 1073.
But from that point onwards they go separate ways with the 1073
switching in a B284 and boosting the gain on the 283 by 5 and then
10dB.

A 1272 makes a passable mic pre, even though it was only designed as a
line amplifier for mix bus amplification... working typically at 40dB
gain. A 1272 can never be a 1073... which brings me back to your
references at the start of this post.

Geoff Tanner

Phoenix Audio International LLC
Aurora Audio International
www.auroraaudio.net

[Off Hugo]

Geoff,

Would you possibly be inclined to mentioned who the exception is?
Inquiring minds would love to know.......

Off Hugo

Post by Geoff Tanner

Post by MillerBud
these pres are made from original neve modules not from averill's clone.  the
faceflate says "made from neve 1272 modules" on the front and the screws -
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2545713717

Hi
Let me preface this by saying that I'm sure that they are a great pair
of 1272's and it's probably a really great deal.
When I read the eBay post though, I wondered if I was reading an
advertisement for a 1073 because you mentioned that module three
times...
Same Class A preamp as Neve 1073 equalizer/preamp modules
Pad is an integral part of the gain switch same as Neve 1073
The 1073 preamp yields a really fat sound
The B283/AV does indeed live in both the 1272 and the 1073, but the
big difference is that the 1073 also has a 3 pole sensitivity switch
and a B284 pre amp. The 1272 was never used as a mic pre by Neve
except as a talkback amplifier and, even then, it was wired with the
gain equally distributed between the two amplifiers.
The comments apply to most 1272 adaptations and, with possibly one
exception, they are all wired incorrectly and not how Neve would have
wired them (the equal gain splitting) had they decided to use the
module as a mic pre. Most of these 1272 mods owe their heritage to a
misguided web page that purported to be the way a 1272 should be
wired.... it was a long way from reality.
If Neve had designed a 1272 mic pre (instead of the 1290) they would
have used a three pole switch. The first pole controlling an input
attenuator, the second pole the front amp gain boost, and the third
pole the second amp gain boost.
In reality, the 1272 conversions mostly use a 2 pole switch with the
first pole as the input attenuator and the second pole controlling the
first amp's gain. The second amp nurdles along at a relatively low
gain whilst all the gain boost is applied to the first amp.
In order to get 70dB of gain (forget trying to achieve the 1073's 80dB
gain!) the front amplifier uses a gain boost resistor in the region of
8 or 9 ohms. The coupling capacitor in series with this resistor was
never intended for so low a value and the low frequency response
plummets at high gains... on top of the issue of running the first
stage at very near open loop gain.
There is nothing 1073 about how this gain control works and if you put
a 1272 alongside a 1073 at 70dB gain you would hear a hell of a lot of
difference in the sound, similar components or not. The reason for
this is that it may be a Neve module, but it's an OEM/retro builder
design... not a Neve design.
In reality, up to around 40dB gain, the 1272 will sound like a 1073.
But from that point onwards they go separate ways with the 1073
switching in a B284 and boosting the gain on the 283 by 5 and then
10dB.
A 1272 makes a passable mic pre, even though it was only designed as a
line amplifier for mix bus amplification... working typically at 40dB
gain. A 1272 can never be a 1073... which brings me back to your
references at the start of this post.
Geoff Tanner
Phoenix Audio International LLC
Aurora Audio International
www.auroraaudio.net

[Geoff Tanner]

Post by Off Hugo
Geoff,
Would you possibly be inclined to mentioned who the exception is?
Inquiring minds would love to know.......
Off Hugo

Hi

Well, I've not physically seem or played with one but that kit, whose name
escapes me though I'm sure someone will post to remind me, does adhere to
the concept of the original 1272 gain structure. The nutty thing, in my
humble opinion, is that the diagrams of Neve consoles were pretty well
available... with most Neve console owners having one and the scores of
photocopies... that none of the Neve modders bothered to look at how Neve
did it.

It's not like it was a big secret and I may have mentioned it one or two
times!

:o)

Geoff Tanner
Phoenix Audio International LLC
Aurora Audio International
www.auroraaudio.net

[Justin Ulysses Morse]

Post by Geoff Tanner
Well, I've not physically seem or played with one but that kit, whose name
escapes me though I'm sure someone will post to remind me, does adhere to
the concept of the original 1272 gain structure. The nutty thing, in my
humble opinion, is that the diagrams of Neve consoles were pretty well
available... with most Neve console owners having one and the scores of
photocopies... that none of the Neve modders bothered to look at how Neve
did it.

You're talking about the Seventh Circle Studios "N72" kit. I bought a
couple boards from them at cost with the promise I'd post a review here
when they were done and I never did. I finally finished putting the
kits together, after a little trouble with some minor errors in the
board, parts designations, and instructions that have since been ironed
out; and it took me a long time to get the modules into a usable
chassis due to some irregularities with off-the-shelf chasses that
aren't Tim's fault but could be planned for; and now that they're done
I find myself doing more equipment building than actual recording so
other than "they work fine" I don't have much opinion of them.

But I do recommend the N72 kit for competent solderers and DIY
enthusiasts who want a very reasonable facsimile of "that" circuit.

ulysses

[Fletcher]

Post by Geoff Tanner
There is nothing 1073 about how this gain control works and if you put
a 1272 alongside a 1073 at 70dB gain you would hear a hell of a lot of
difference in the sound, similar components or not.

Yes, we've all beaten this point to death with a stick... and while it's one thing to beat a dead horse,
it's another thing to try and put a saddle on the motherfucker... so, from the "user" perspective... when
was the last time someone actually needed 70db of gain on a microphone?

If you look around, modern microphone manufacturers [like Neumann] have been releasing designs that are
half pushing 'horsepower' at the output... some to the point of requiring no gain at all, never mind 70db
of gain.

A little perspective Geoff... the brother was offering some used modules for sale... not trying to start
a company, nor was he misrepresenting the things... he's just trying to flip some hardware he no longer
needs. WTF?
--
Fletcher
Mercenary Audio
TEL: [phone]
FAX: [phone]
http://www.mercenary.com
"this is not a problem"

[Geoff Tanner]

Hi Fletcher

You're absolutely right... and perish the thought that I would ever post a
true comment that would jeopardise the sale of a Neve product :o)

(BTW I believe that 8066 has a buyer now!)

It was the three mentions of 1073, your honour, t'was more than I could
take...

Shuffles away from the witness stand....

:o)

Geoff

Post by Fletcher

Post by Geoff Tanner
There is nothing 1073 about how this gain control works and if you put
a 1272 alongside a 1073 at 70dB gain you would hear a hell of a lot of
difference in the sound, similar components or not.

Yes, we've all beaten this point to death with a stick... and while it's

one thing to beat a dead horse,

Post by Fletcher
it's another thing to try and put a saddle on the motherfucker... so, from

the "user" perspective... when

Post by Fletcher
was the last time someone actually needed 70db of gain on a microphone?
If you look around, modern microphone manufacturers [like Neumann] have

been releasing designs that are

Post by Fletcher
half pushing 'horsepower' at the output... some to the point of requiring

no gain at all, never mind 70db

Post by Fletcher
of gain.
A little perspective Geoff... the brother was offering some used modules

for sale... not trying to start

Post by Fletcher
a company, nor was he misrepresenting the things... he's just trying to

flip some hardware he no longer

Post by Fletcher
needs. WTF?
--
Fletcher
Mercenary Audio
TEL: [phone]
FAX: [phone]
http://www.mercenary.com
"this is not a problem"

[MillerBud]

Hey Geoff,
Sorry if my ebay post bothered you,but if you look a little closer you will see
"here is the description from Brent Averill's site : " I just copied and
pasted from Brent Averill's site. He made 'em. I haven't had time to list this
stuff for the last year.... let alone think of something to say.

Buddy Miller

[Sharp9]

Buddy Miller? I was wondering if that was you. I can't buy your mic pre but
I'm gonna go buy all your records! I just watched that Spyboy video (having
recently been knocked out by the Letterman appearance) and you are now on my
favorite guitar players list. What's that AC-30 you're using? It's so clean
it looks like a reissue but my reissue (though it sounds good) is so cheaply
made and unreliable I seldom bother to use it as more than a 2XBlue speaker
cab in the studio let alone dragging it out on the road. Is it maybe the
fancy hand-wired deal?
Don

Post by MillerBud
Hey Geoff,
Sorry if my ebay post bothered you,but if you look a little closer you will see
"here is the description from Brent Averill's site : " I just copied and
pasted from Brent Averill's site. He made 'em. I haven't had time to list this
stuff for the last year.... let alone think of something to say.
Buddy Miller

[Geoff Tanner]

Post by MillerBud
Hey Geoff,
Sorry if my ebay post bothered you,but if you look a little closer you will see
"here is the description from Brent Averill's site : " I just copied and
pasted from Brent Averill's site. He made 'em. I haven't had time to list this
stuff for the last year.... let alone think of something to say.
Buddy Miller

Hi Buddy

Yes, you have a point and I'll creep back into my lair!

I get very hyper about misquotes concerning Neve stuff because there
are some real gems on eBay at times... the best was a 3503 oscillator
described as a mic pre!

So forgive my haste in the case, though I won't promise that I won't
jump on the next Neve faux pas that someone might post!

:o)

Geoff

[Sharp9]

Buddy Miller? I was wondering if that was you. I can't buy your mic pre but
I'm gonna go buy all your records! I just watched that Spyboy video (having
recently been knocked out by the Letterman appearance) and you are now on my
favorite guitar players list. What's that AC-30 you're using? It's so clean
it looks like a reissue but my reissue (though it sounds good) is so cheaply
made and unreliable I seldom bother to use it as more than a 2XBlue speaker
cab in the studio let alone dragging it out on the road. Is it maybe the
fancy hand-wired deal?
Don

Post by MillerBud
Hey Geoff,
Sorry if my ebay post bothered you,but if you look a little closer you will see
"here is the description from Brent Averill's site : " I just copied and
pasted from Brent Averill's site. He made 'em. I haven't had time to list this
stuff for the last year.... let alone think of something to say.
Buddy Miller

[Mike Rivers]

Post by Fletcher
A little perspective Geoff... the brother was offering some used modules for
sale... not trying to start
a company, nor was he misrepresenting the things... he's just trying to flip
some hardware he no longer
needs. WTF?

TF is that the next person to buy them will continue the "1073 myth."

On the other hand, while Buddy's eBay description mentioned 1073, he
didn't say these were 1073's. Kind of like profusely mentioning
"Ampex" in the description of any tape deck you're trying to sell on
eBay. ("Uses 1/4" tape just like an Ampex") - it gets people who know
a buzzword, even if it's incorrect, to the auction posting.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers - (***@d-and-d.com)

[Lorin David Schultz]

Post by Fletcher
Yes, we've all beaten this point to death with a stick...

Hey, don't discourage Geoff. I know you feel like you've heard the song
so many times you're gonna go wiggy, but don't shoot the artist -- just
change the channel.

Two reasons:

One: bullshit, misinformation and misunderstanding multiply much faster
than correction. There are new idiots getting it wrong every day, and
even though YOU have read the truth from Geoff more than once, many
others haven't yet. They need lots of chances to see it 'cause they're
a little slower than the rest of the class.

Two: Geoff's so full of fun little details that I'd hate for him to ever
hesitate for even one second before he posted something here, out of
concern that he might get blasted for it. I'd rather read the same info
a hundred times than have him hesitate and accidentally withhold a
little gem sometime.

Besides, it's not like we've had this discussion all THAT often. It
just seems like it to you because you've been here a while.

[Geoff Tanner]

Chandler makes a mic/line pre eq that by all rights is is a 1073. It
looks like a 1073 and all the boards and parts inside are identical to
a 1073 except they are all new. And best of all it sounds just like a
1073.

Good for him....

I could make an acerbic comment but my opinions on that topic are not for
airing here.

:o)

Geoff